By - VoxTheTVOverlord
What in the heck is a "hardcore vegetarian"?
> What in the heck is a "hardcore vegetarian"?
probably someone who eats nothing but cheese
I thing "Long-time vegetarian" would make more sense.
Vegetarians that know what veganism is, yet are still vegetarians.
This! I have a hard time understanding it! My friend who’s been a vegetarian for +5 years (for the animals) was the one who introduced me to veganism. We often talk about the animal cruelty in factory fishing and farming, cosmetics/hygiene products and animal testing. However, everytime I (without thinking) mention the dairy industry she falls quiet. Obviously she’s bothered, not by me mentioning it, but by her choice to consume cheese and what not. Yet she doesn’t seem to want to know the whole truth about it? I’m not sure if she’s actually aware about the dairy and egg industry, or if she’s chosen to not open that door at all.. Don’t know how to bring up the subject with her. It’s easier with someone who’s totally in the blue about everything than someone who’s chosen to commit to a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet.
Not sure there is a way of bringing things like this up aside from being straight forward with it and posing the question during a meal perhaps.
If this is an actual friend, then I don't think it'd be difficult at all really.
You’re right, thank you! We’ve been really close since junior high, but I’ve been living abroad for a while so we haven’t met irl in like 6 years. But we’re going to spend New Years together, so maybe during cooking or dinner prep it would be a good opportunity to bring it up naturally :)
Aw shit, that sounds a bit shaky, since you don't see them constantly. Be very careful on how you deliver something like that to someone you haven't seen in forever. It could really spoil the occasion and an entire friendship if this is dear to you. The only time people bring up serious matters during exceptional times (seeing someone you haven't in forever, on top of it being during a holiday of sorts) is for folks looks to do either the most damage (meaning someone that really wants to make a breakup stick this time), or someone at their wits end (meaning lost their mind because any other time would have been more sensible as it would mitigate blowback in case something goes wrong).
Some friends I can make jokes about their mothers, others, when I speak too loudly, want to get up and do something about it.. I don't know what kind of friend this is, so please think carefully if this is someone you don't want to lose.
I was thinking to just maybe casually ask about it and then leave it at that in case my friend would become defensive. But even so it’s a bit of a gamble I guess.. She’s very easy going and open minded, but at the same time very straight forward with her opinions. So might not be the best of occasions to adress this. Feels weird to sit down and pretend like nothing too though. I’ll consider this carefully before the event. Thank again! I have some thinking to do!
Do ping back and tells me how it ends up going if you happen to remember.
Sure! I’ll keep you posted!
I had to go actually look some stats up. Looks like dairy cows make up about 1/5-1/4 of beef production. [source](https://www.wlj.net/markets/beef-contribution-in-2018-from-dairy-cattle/article_bc27bb7e-6ce9-11e9-b762-ab7e36956460.html)
It also ignores veal and focuses on finished dairy steers, heifers and cull cows. I wager the journalists specializing in livestock consider veal a separate industry.
Oh, well thats a pretty major omission. Most low-quality cheap beef (like in Mcdonalds burgers) is from male dairy calves that were supposed to be female
Ah yeah, that is probably a major factor.
But those 1/4 of cows that are slaughtered would always get slaughtered even if they weren't exploited as milk cows earlier in their "life". They simply had a few years of slavery beforehand.
Sort of... technically part of their cost is offset by the dairy production, so in theory that slightly predisposes the market towards having more total beef production.
I never considered this. Thank you
The dairy industries also make up almost the entirety of the veal industry. The amount of carnists let alone vegetarians I’ve met who will tell you they won’t eat veal on moral grounds while sipping a glass of milk is baffling.
Edit: I guess I should clarify its baffling how many will continue drinking that glass of milk when it’s explained where milk comes from and what happens to the baby cows that are required to have been conceived for it to have been made.
It’s also baffling how few people know that’s how dairy and veal work. Seems like willful ignorance unless everyone just happened to miss that day in basic highschool biology about mammalian milk production.
Is it though? Most people don't **know** that the dairy industry contributes to veal. I imagine this is especially true in the case of vegetarians who avoid meat for ethical reasons.
I pretended for 20 years. I went veggie in 1991. But around 2011 I got caught up in an internal debate and read about abolitionism vs welfare.... I was not very happy. I watched Gary Francione "I'm Vegan" video... I didn't even realize I was vegan yet until went to the store and looked at the milk, which was my last animal product, and I simply couldn't do it... It all looked different now. Vegan ever since.
[This is the video that did it for me....](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5pDU1yMWMw)
edit: for posterity... I saw this in 2012 not 2011... went vegan in Feb 2012.
edit 2: for validity... I wasn't actually pretending. I thought vegetarianism was the "baseline" for many reasons....bad reasons...but it wasn't "pretend", I had goofy "reasons". I was a reluctant vegan. But I felt I had to be true and more importantly, no longer participate in animal suffering.
India a land which is proud of Vegetarians and being top beef exporter, opps sorry my bad it was a secret.
I asked a vegetarian friend a long time ago, and he said he was only vegetarian for the health benefits. Some of them just have their head in the sand, while others don't actually care about animals.
Western influence (no offence),people here nowadays think it's an achievement to eat beef
I agree. Not sure how it even started in Kerela and Goa.
But but but u gotta milk cow or else they literally explode!1!1!1!!!
I learned this from Malcolm in the Middle. The episode on the ranch with the rogue demon cow that just needed to be milked. Did not make much sense in retrospect.
You sick fuck
Found the omni
But.....I'm....vegan?.....and it was just a sarcastic joke meant to add on to what the person above me said.....
I was in this place for *soooo long*. Probably still would be if Earthlings hadn't forced me to acknowledge that dairy is just as bad as meat.
Watch the life-changing and award winning documentary "Dominion" (an updated version of Earthlings) and other documentaries by [clicking here](https://3movies.org/reddit)! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcamp.org/reddit)!
I... am vegan?
The bot just triggers if you say Earthlings lol
u can’t be mean to vegetarians :( they put in half the effort so you can’t be mean to them this is why people hate vegans ! :((((((
A vegetarian planted thr seed for me when I was omni when we were paired to work with goats at a fair.
I remember specifically her telling me about the goats getting stressed and people not understanding that. But we let one got not get any attention for a while and claimed she was "sick."
Next to our pin was a party pony with wide eyes as a woman dancing and played an instrument in its face.
I already knew farm animals were like dogs and cats..just that experience and someone pointing it out removed the blind over my eyes.
I went Vegan a few months after that when attempting Vegetarianism.
Vegetarians make their lives significantly harder and more awkward while failing to make any ethical difference
Smh they say the same thing to murderers. Look on the bright side, they're doing half the effort from being serial murderers! This is why people hate non-murder extremists
Wow ... the level of animosity never ceases to amaze me. Especially that it's orders of magnitude more fiercely against vegetarians than against carnists.
Vegetarians still contribute to needless animal suffering, a little animal abuse and a lot of animal abuse are both immoral.
Hey, everyone here gets that, it's been a zillion times.
and yet here you are, still being a huge pissbaby about people calling out animal abuse
Calling murderers murderers = Amazing level of animosity
Yep, that checks out.
Probably because vegetarians have the audacity to pretend that they're somehow like vegans, when they're pretty much carnist^(lite)
I see, I can imagine the audacity must hurt really bad. Yes, I now understand, they must be punished.
At the end of the day, it's the animals who get punished.
>Yes, I now understand, they must be punished.
Jokes at the expense of vegetarians are hardly a punishment.
Wikipedia has this to say:
Analyzing the history of vegetarianism and opposition to it from ancient Greece to the present day, literary scholar Renan Larue found certain commonalities in what he described as carnist arguments. According to him, carnists typically held that vegetarianism is a ludicrous idea unworthy of attention, that mankind is invested with dominion over animals by divine authority, and that abstaining from violence against animals would pose a threat to humans. He found that the views that farmed animals do not suffer, and that slaughter is preferable to death by disease or predation, gained currency in the nineteenth century, but that the former had precedent in the writings of Porphyry, a vegetarian who advocated the humane production of animal products which do not require animals to be slaughtered, such as wool.
Who is worse, an alligator that killed 10 people, or a human that killed 1 person?
How about returning back to earth for a moment?
In case you missed the analogy, alligator is the carnist - completely unaware, low IQ, no empathy toward mammals, mentally challenged. Person is a vegetarian - semi aware, medium-low IQ.
Who do you blame more?
That's a terrible metaphor. People who eat meat are low IQ and mentally challenged? You need an ego check
Who do you blame more, though?
This is what made me go back to being vegan this year after being raised vegan then deciding to go vegetarian at 12 years old. I was young so i was ignorant but I still really regret contributing to that for 6 years of my life
I genuinely don't understand why many vegans get so defensive when we make fun of vegetarians. Most of them don't bat an eye when we criticize 'before 6pm vegans', 'reducitarians' or 'flexitarians' but for some reason get defensive when we do the same for vegetarians. Why draw the line at vegetarianism?
Inb4 "STop atTackIng VeGeTaRIans, tHey aRE TRyiNG :("
Meanie vegans are why I can't give up cheese :( :(((((
Vegans: Dairy industry = meat industry.
Vegetarians: Ur attacking me!!! >:(
Make sense. Some people are working toward eating less meat. Not good enough! We need to shame and mock them. That will bring them more toward veganism.
This is the mindset of people who don't care about anything other than being right. Every meal that a person eats less or no meat to me is a good thing. I applaud vegetarians and even people who choose to not eat meat a few days a week. Every animal life saved is a step in the right direction. Doesn't have to be perfection or nothing.
I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't take that stance on any other issue. No one applauds people who choose to beat their spouse only once a month instead of once a week. No one's out there saying "Well if we want people to stop murdering, we have to applaud them for cutting back. Anti-murder activists shame them too much! My best friend is down to only one murder and one torture per week, how great is that!?"
Seriously I'd love for you to use "doesn't have to be perfection or nothing" when debating ANYONE else's right to life and bodily autonomy.
"I'm so happy that the priest who abused me my entire childhood is down to only abusing ONE child per month now! That's way better than when he was assaulting all of us!"
If you wouldn't substitute that argument when arguing for human rights, then it's clear that you don't view animal lives as comparably worthy of fighting for.
The strawman fallacy is when you exaggerate someone's argument in order to make it easier to attack.
I'm saying if you'd put the same flimsy "half steps are so great" emphasis onto any other justice movement you'd get raked over the coals. If you think I'm exaggerating then you think that humans deserve higher moral consideration than animals (which isn't necessarily nonvegan but it sure is speciesist). If humans and animals truly deserve equal empathetic consideration then we can substitute them and ourselves interchangeably in these arguments, no problem. This is all to demonstrate that encouraging people to take baby steps dilutes the overall message that animals are not here for us to manipulate, control, and exploit however we want.
Veganism and priest molesting children are different arguments, as you said.
It's really not though.
Molesting children is universally accepted as wrong, where as eating meat isn't.
Ask a grandmother in Korea, a farmer in Guatemala, an Inuit in Canada, or a single mother in Peru if it's okay to eat meat and they'll say yes. Ask the same people if it's okay to molest children and they'll say no.
Obviously I'm 100% against animal abuse and I remember the first time I heard of the concept of "vegan" (I was 12 years old) and I knew that I was going to be one. However, I'm not going to make arguments that eating animals can be compared to priest molesting children. That just sounds dramatic and problematic. I kind of roll my eyes at vegetarians, but I'd rather people start from somewhere than nowhere at all. Before I was vegan (almost 4 years now), I was vegetarian, then I stopped consuming milk, and then it was eggs. I'm open minded enough and my ego's not big enough for me to not be able to accept criticism, but I'm grateful that the ethical vegans I met when I was vegetarian helped me see the light and helped me to embrace veganism.
Thank you for elaborating brilliantly on my point.
The difference between those examples is nobody starts out molesting children. Almost everybody starts out consuming animal products. Molesting children is not something you have to unlearn. Therefore it’s not comparable in terms of stages, because there shouldn’t be a need for a process of unlearning the way there is for consuming animal products which we are indoctrinated to believe is perfectly fine.
I’m vegan, but this is a strawman. All of your examples are acts that are universally condemned and deemed culturally unacceptable by the vast, vast majority of people. I’m confident we’ll get there one day, but as of now, the use of animal products is not only culturally accepted, but it’s the norm — children are encouraged to eat it! Until it is no longer the norm, half-measures are better than no-measures
There has to be the first person to condemn an act and deem it unacceptable. How the fuck do you get to universal condemnation without anyone actually condemning the act?
Isn't the whole point of veganism that the acts of carnists SHOULD be universally condemned? Am I not on a supposedly "vegan" subreddit where we're all supposed to agree that cultural norms are no excuse for atrocities?
If "But I'm tryyyyying" isn't a good enough excuse for committing horrible wrongs into humans, why is it a good excuse for doing horrible things to animals?
By promoting reductionism you are telling people that SOME harm is still okay, "because everyone else is doing way way worse." Which is just such an awful way to think about ethics my friend!
if they are making progress towards veganism then they're doing the best they can with what they know. You must understand this and be supportive of people who are trying
>if they are making progress towards veganism then they're doing the best they can with what they know.
Countless people know all the horror of the meat, egg, and dairy industry but "muh cheese" or "muh bacon".
That is not "doing their best" and you know it. There is no support needed of such pathetic excuses.
And who's gonna let them know that what they're doing isn't good enough? Isn't that our job to speak up for the animals? When I finally realized how my violent and destructive my own vegetarianism was, I switched to a plant based diet and a fully vegan lifestyle literally overnight because I was horrified at what I was doing. And what I was doing was encouraged by people like you. I wished so badly that someone had showed me the truth instead of praising my sanctimonious bullshit half measures.
Anti racists don't praise people for TRYING not to commit hate crimes, as anti racists they demand an end to discrimination and they demand justice for POC. So why the fuck are vegans so afraid to hurt carnists' feelings? I'm sick of capitulating to the demands of the violent oppressors themselves. Other justice movements don't put up with this shit.
>I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't take that stance on any other issue.
>No one applauds people who choose to beat their spouse only once a month instead of once a week.
I would applaud the latter if the former was practiced by 95% of people
>Well if we want people to stop murdering, we have to applaud them for cutting back. Anti-murder activists shame them too much!
If 95% of people murdered humans regularly, a person only murdering occasionally would be commendable.
Yes, vegetarianism is a logically inconsistent idea, and yes, any amount of contribution to animal suffering is bad, but keep in mind that A. Even though you're right, you hold a fringe viewpoint so alienating the people closer to your point of view is counterproductive and B. Even though vegetarians still contribute to animal suffering, cutting out meat reduces the amount of harm that person is doing.
Journeys of losing weight and shaking drug addiction are personal endeavors where the perpetrator is also the victim, which is entirely different from abuses that involve violence towards OTHERS. So it seems like you're the one making incongruent comparisons. Personal progress and personal goals are great when you're only battling yourself, but not when you're funding someone ELSE's murder.
Casually shuffling animal abuse and torture under the umbrella of "eating dinner" is honestly disgusting. Eating a child's dead flesh isn't a source of comfort and sustenance either, it's something way more sinister and unnecessary, that's my entire damn point!
>Make sense. Some people are working toward raping less children. Not good enough! We need to shame and mock them. That will bring them more toward not raping children.
Literally every person I know who was vegetarian before I become a vegan is still a vegetarian now. "step in the right direction" my hairy arse. It's a feel-good cop-out where you get to pretend you care about animals and not actually do anything or make any real change.
"Hey, it's a step in the right direction that this person doesn't beat their children daily and only does it once a week, don't be shaming him, he doesn't have to be 'perfect'"
You're comparing child abuse to feeding people in ways you don't like.
Ever think that maybe its the vocal vegans keeping people away from veganism?
“Feeding people in ways you don’t like”. I think you mean animal abuse.
If that's what you want to call it, doesn't make my statement any less true.
No, I am comparing child abuse to animal abuse and animal murder. If you want I could include murdering children as well to make it even more accurate of an analogy. You want to go that route, bud?
And no, sorry bud, vocal vegans are what YOU don't like because they bring negative attention to the things you support. You want doormat pick-me vegans who won't speak up against the wrongs you commit. You are no different than the people that crapped on MLK and Malcolm X as 'extremists'.
Here, go learn something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWHqJpcgjk0
> And no, sorry bud, vocal vegans are what YOU don't like because they bring negative attention to the things you support.
No, they're just annoying prats. Beyond beef burgers are delicious, but so are normal burgers. Switching isn't the issue.
Being associated and called a vegan is the issue.
Yes, we get it, you would hate being associated with people who oppose the rape, mutilation, abuse, torture, and killing of animals.
Just like you'd be against being associated with people who oppose child abuse, rape, etc.. Right? You ain't fooling anyone.
> Yes, we get it, you would hate being associated with people who oppose the rape, mutilation, abuse, torture, and killing of animals.
Yes I would hate to be associated with people who only talk about how they oppose rape, mutilation, abuse, torture, and killing of animals as some means of being a better person than others.
> Just like you'd be against being associated with people who oppose child abuse, rape, etc.. Right? You ain't fooling anyone.
You're trying too hard to be edgy.
I'm not trying to fool anyone. That's the thing. I'm not like you, I'm not trying to be something so that I can have some credibility or some value to whoever or whatever it is you think you are. If you want to be a vegan, do it, but the moment you do it and tell anyone that you oppose rape, mutilation, abuse, torture, and killing of animals, and because they aren't a vegan, they clearly don't. It makes you a twat and makes your entire personality fake as fuck. Bet you tweet out every time you give a homeless person a dollar.
It doesn't make me a twat to speak the truth, dumbfuck. Supporting animal agriculture directly supports rape, mutilation, abuse, torture, and killing of animals. There's no getting around that, even though it clearly makes you very uncomfortable for that to be pointed out.
>You're comparing child abuse to feeding people in ways you don't like.
And you’re using evasive language to disguise the acts we’re criticising. ‘Feeding people in ways you don’t like’ = harming animals.
It wouldn’t be fair for us to say ‘You’re comparing animal abuse to disciplining children in ways you don’t like’, would it?
>Ever think that maybe its the vocal vegans keeping people away from veganism?
Clearly you don’t have a lot of respect for humans if you think they’re immature enough to intentionally commit immoral acts for such a dumb reason.
> Clearly you don’t have a lot of respect for humans if you think they’re immature enough to intentionally commit immoral acts for such a dumb reason.
You're ignorant as fuck if you think they aren't. Also funny you think its a dumb reason.
Also I think it's hilarious how your defense of vegetarians is that " at least they're saving soooome animals," when the entire point of the meme is that vegetarians literally aren't saving any more animal lives by continuing to fund the exact same murder industry
At least they think they are saving animals, and isn't important to at least feel helpful?
In case it is not clear I am being sarcastic and vegetarians are useless
Thanks for being open minded and understanding! I'm working on this process right now myself. I started reducing meat consumption almost a year ago, and I'm currently working on being full-time vegetarian. For me, dietary modification takes a bit of time. I'm looking forward to going full vegan within 6-9 months.
I still say that 1000 people reducing meat intake makes a way bigger difference than 100 vegans do.
>That will bring them more toward veganism.
Are we supposed to say "Wow! You only paid for animal abuse half of the time, we're so proud of you!"?
If my family were racist half of the time instead of all of the time, sure I might recognize that as being *better*, but I'm never going to agree that it's *good*. I'm also never going to stop pushing towards a better future simply because someone put in a half-assed effort and wants my validation for it.
The fact that you are being downvoted on a supposedly vegan subreddit is mindboggling.
You're getting down votes cause we still have plenty of speceist vegans.
People still have it in their minds that being vegetarian accomplishes something.
You know what it accomplishes? It funds the meat industry. As people have pointed out in this thread dairy cows are simply slaughtered after their milk production slows. Buying dairy produces more meat.
One way I look at it is whether or not your ethics allows for the continuation of slaughterhouses. A society full of vegetarians is still a society that needs animal agriculture because you have to get all of that milk, cheese, and eggs from somewhere. Hence, the vegetarian philosophy does very little if anything for the goal of animal liberation. The people closest to being allies of the vegan movement are plant-based dieters since the decreased demand for animal products will mean fewer animals bred overall and that makes it a lot easier to make animal ag illegal in the future.
"I didn't read the 'hardcore vegetarian' part"
But the cheese tho……
That was funny shit!
Hardcore vegan is youth of today. Fight me
This post is stupid because if you’re not already vegan or vegetarian and you come here looking for support to stop eating meat or changing your ways, you’re going to see a bunch of gatekeeping arrogance that’s going to put you off of making the change.
Overall this post helps animals 0%, and if anything loses more people than it gains. I get that everyone in here are aware the dairy industry is bad, just as bad as factory farming, but for people who come from areas where meat is a big part of their culture, their family, or they live on a farm, it takes more than a documentary to change their lifestyles.
Actively blocking community members by gatekeeping what little efforts people make to reduce meat consumption is stupid and shouldn’t be upvoted on this sub. This is coming from someone who is vegan themselves.
Sounds more like another excuse to ”not go vegan today”. Anyone who’s aware and truly cares, doesn’t need to sit around waiting for a welcome party and get treats and praise whenever they make progress in their transition. Ethical vegans does it because they want to stop animal cruelty. Not to get a gold star from the vegan community for trying. It’s not something that depends on social acceptance, it’s about one’s own moral and ethical standpoint.
The reason we are vegan is because we don’t think we’re superior to other beings. That’s the whole point.
I consider myself superior to pigs. Doesn’t mean I should torture and murder them. But that’s not what I was talking about, which you know, of course.
No that would be vegetarians.
Better to be an asshole than to support, finance and facilitate abuse, rape and murder of sentient beings.
Lol right? More people should be willing to stand up for the vulnerable on this planet, regardless of the tone policing of some goddamn carnists
Imagine feeling so superior that you kill others for food you don't need
Vegans: abstain from participating in animal abuse as much as practicably possible
You: tHeY OnLY cARE abOUt fEElinG SuPEriOR 😭
I don’t eat meat and probably get more protein than you do.
Insulting others and creating divides is soooo much fun and going to get this cause so far!
It's only an insult if one feels implicated. It is a fact that the dairy and beef industries are inextricably connected; pointing that out is not an insult. Highlighting the undeniably real observation that the very vegetarians who abstain from purchasing beef to prevent cow suffering continue to fund it through dairy (and remain wilfully ignorant to this fact) is not inherently an insult.
And vegetarian-turned-vegans very, very commonly attribute their impetus to change to having their hypocrisy called out by messages like these (whether in a meme format like this or more directly).
So…are we sugar coating abuse now?
Why not make posts about veganism, rather than about putting non vegans down? Seems like kind of a weird fixation, as though you don’t have enough content to further your own cause- so you gotta bully others
I only use milk in my coffee anyway. (Which is a venti latte of 95% milk that I have daily)
Why not switch to almond or oat milk?
I find oat milk to be superior to cow's milk anyways. If I wasn't Vegan, I would still use it because it's just better. I even got my dad, who very much likes to eat animals, to use oat milk in his coffee. He agrees it's really good.
nahhh, man no one nuts in my coffee. However, I am for milking those little oat udders to the last drop. I was actually aiming for irony btw. My point was when an adult enjoy a fat cup of cows milk with a shot or two of coffee in it - it really is no better or worse than having that glass of milk on its own.
ah yes, coffee, definitely worth separating a child and mother for. i’m sure when the cow is spent and is slaughtered she will be thinking to herself ‘well at least fooballfan123 got to enjoy a venti latte’
people probably stopped taking you seriously or in good faith when you started with ‘i’ve never heard of cows being separated from calves’ when that’s standard practice
maybe in some, but no one is gonna take you seriously if you’re not educated on basic industry standard
almost like we should stop breeding animals bred to overproduce milk into the world or something. almost like we should stop directly funding animal abuse
and you think financially supporting the farmers who breed them is helping them? ever heard of animal sanctuaries? and it’s also possible to milk cows who produce more than their children need and send the milk off to other sanctuaries who need it for their animals or to impoverished groups of people. i promise you supporting their exploitation is not helping them
What happens on a small farm with milk taken for personal use is very different from what happens in industrial dairy production. In industry every percent counts and suffering means nothing.
Yes, because we bred them to do that. WE are the instigators of their pain, AND we happen to have the solution too, milking them...
See the bigger picture.
...and that's exactly what a vegan would SAY. STOP breeding them... There is NO scenario where your hypothetical plays out except some kind of global apocalypse where only humans are killed.
The only cows that might have issues if they aren't manually milked are a product of human breeding practices. It's exploitation and slavery. People like to pretend that this is ludicrous hyperbole without entertaining the possibility. But truly there is undeniable data to support that these animals are intelligent, experience pain, stress, and anxiety, and are incredibly emotional.
Supporting small farms perpetuates the idea that animals don't deserve to be treated with respect. If we approached the same situation you describe with the respect animals deserve, then it should be obvious that we have a duty to rectify the health problems that humans have created for these animals through immoral breeding practices. We would be able to focus our energy and conversations on productive ways to help the animals of today and the future. Instead, our energy is focused on convincing people that exploiting conscious and intelligent living beings is actually wrong - especially if they have health issues that are only present because of the way humans forced them to breed for our sole benefit.
I didn't make that assumption about you or downvote you, sorry for not making that clearer. I did add that context because I wasn't sure what you believe and it's important to the overall point. I think we might be on somewhat the same page. But I do feel we can address the problem you've mentioned with the understanding that it is our onus as humans to alleviate the problem and change it for future generations. Supporting small farms contradicts that effort as it perpetuates and justifies their continued exploitation. Under capitalism, we have more impact with our dollar than we do voting. Once milk cows are no longer profitable (because of low demand) then it doesn't make sense to keep breeding those milk cows. It is a process but I do believe we have to be careful about what statements we put out into public spaces because it's all part of a larger discussion. Saying you're okay with small farms because those cows would have issues reinforces the justification most humans use for the milk industry.
I would just ask you to consider this dynamic and also that nothing happens in a vacuum. If you're feeling like you've been attacked then know that we're just here to try to protect animals, and that you might expect a certain reaction when an argument that has historically been used to justify animal exploitation is used in this space. It's not a sign that vegans are unwilling to discuss or acknowledge reality. We're just tired of hearing the same arguments constantly that don't start from the assumption that we have an onus to protect animals and rectify these injustices.
Fair enough. Well hopefully this helps you to understand why you got this reaction. I'm glad to hear you understand how important these efforts are. Hope you have a good day too!
Any reason why you go through all the work to make sure all products you eat don't contain milk \[powder\] but just unabashedly use it in your coffee?
that is a good point I will remember to bring up thank you.
That must be the easiest milk to substitute away.