T O P

The "Billionares Shouldn't Go To Space If There's Poverty on Earth" argument is stupid and will hold back humanity.

The "Billionares Shouldn't Go To Space If There's Poverty on Earth" argument is stupid and will hold back humanity.

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matantamim1

In a few decades there will be poverty in space


ClockwiseServant

so the Belters will become a reality then?


BoraxThorax

Ay beltalowda


Raz_Aqua

Bosmang kapawu *goes* fash da losh!


p0ultrygeist1

I have watched the show many times yet I still struggle to understand what the belters are saying half the time. I really suck at understanding accents in every day life too though so I’m not surprised


DrManhattan_DDM

Subtitles are a big help even if the audio is a language you know.


Bacon-muffin

I love subtitles when watching shows. So many things I would've missed from subtle sounds or dialogue to the names of the songs playing being super relevant etc etc.


Jjjla

Mi pensa, beratna


anormalgeek

Sasa ke?


DaxCorso

Oye, Beratna. All de welwalla are de same. We beltalowda are strong.


RelativeNewt

Glad I got my OPA tattoo a few years ago. Now I'm set


FateEx1994

Oye!


SergeantPsycho

Belta Lowda!


[deleted]

a wildly optimistic timeframe. I will agree that if space becomes colonized then there will be poverty in space, but to suggest that we'll achieve that at the same time most of the extreme effects of global warming have fully ramped up is absurd.


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youthetom

down here u homeless up there u oxygenless lol


anyearl

Ah yes imagine them charging the workers who will supply the oxygen. You can't come to work today we will take 75% of your oxygen make sure you stay in the bed. No living for you.


athrowagay69420

All you entitled Gen deltas expecting oxygen to just be given to you. If you want oxygen then get off your lazy ass and go work for it. Stop sitting in your parents cargo bay and buying all that space star bucks. All the while the minimum oxygen wage is less than half of what you need to get by. Also plants would be illegal to grow because you can't have free o2 cutting into the profit margins of the ultra wealthy. See doctor who 10 05 for more.


RWhatIWant2B

I think that’s it in a nutshell tho I think rich ppl going to space to get away from poor ppl and we’re going to run out of oxygen here. Makes me think of that movie Elysium.


itstheclap

Not if you read the expanse.


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itstheclap

I'm a forgetful kinda guy. I know I will be the first person that makes a tiny mistake and gets blown out of an air vent.


gunavanthvarma

Space em


BUFBills_AfricasTeam

Billionaires are going to go colonize Mars and leave the poor behind on Earth to burn. They have enough money to help now, while they are still stuck on Earth, and they don't. Why would they help anyone once they've acquired the means to leave Earth and all its problems behind?


PlanesAndRockets

For the immediate future (decades/centuries depending on your optimism) it doesn’t matter whether billionaires are living in space or on Earth, the conditions on Earth have the same impact on them. Anyone in space is and will be extremely reliant on supplies from Earth and the economic conditions here. As for physical conditions like global warming/hunger/poverty, they already don’t care. They are rich enough to not have to see any of the impacts. Is space a hobby for them, a business, a dream? Maybe. But I really doubt they are going to get away from the problems on Earth by going to space.


LurkerInSpace

I think a lot of people underestimate the scale of the challenge. Reaching 7 million people on Mars - 0.1% of Earth's current population - would be an astonishing achievement even a hundred years after the first colony is founded. It will be entirely dependent on trade with Earth - becoming autarkic would create a sort of North Korea in space. It would have outsized influence of course - if it was one unified colony its low gravity well would let it compete militarily in space even with Earth's great powers - but that doesn't make it economically independent.


racerbaggins

The billionaires aren't going to live on Mars. Do you have any idea how tough living on Mars is going to be?


Witoccurs

I’m going to say outside of large domes. It will never have an atmosphere like earths. With no generation of a magnetic field no atmospheric particles will be safe from the sun stripping it away. So tough. Very.


Danky_0s

If we can't fix Earth's problems then we have no chance to fix Mars.


[deleted]

It would take trillions of dollars over hundreds of years to create one self sustaining small town on mars. Not to mention that billionaires cannot use most of their money. People are overestimating the utility of billionaires. If this is going to happen, it has to be a united project.


itsPomy

I think a lot of people just don't want advancements into space being privatized, otherwise you get memes like the Wall-E ship becoming a reality.


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anormalgeek

NASA says screw you. They release the majority (except for stuff that may benefit other nations' weapons programs) of their technological innovations for free. This has a good sampling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies


nbunkerpunk

With most big advancements in technology, government agencies start the advancements because they can easily run programs at a loss. Once the foundation is set, these government agencies will usually start passing on the technology to private businesses where the end goal is to make a profit. Pick out any modern consumer tech product and go back in it's history. The likelihood of finding a government agency at that technologies birth is very high.


DeadWing651

NASA or the military complex has invented most of our stuff to some degree. Private sector just tweaked and improved


Lord_Baconz

NASA also hires tons of private contractors. They do both. It’s silly to think NASA designs everything in-house or contracts everything out.


The4Shadowmask

But the government owns it at the end of the day, that's the difference


ottothesilent

The difference is even better than that, when the government does something, the *people* own it. It would be incredibly disheartening to see my tax dollars go to putting Elon on Mars


anormalgeek

They still keep the patents though. And even if they do partner with contractors for some stuff, how is that as bad as private contractors getting ALL of it?


colebrv

Private contractors do not keep the patents. The Feds control them and keep any of the work including the patents. Private contractors are just to do the job and get paid they keep nothing. Edit: Spelling


ellWatully

That's *highly* dependent on the nature of the contract. For projects where they act as an integrator (which is most of the high profile stuff), they own the design for the system, but not necessarily each of its subsystems. For example, they own the design for the SLS boosters, but they may not own the design for the booster's case, propellant formulation, flight termination system, nozzle, etc.


HonorMyBeetus

Back in the 70s and 80s, I would agree with you, but NASA can barely get rockets launching these days while SpaceX and Bezos are launching them like it's going out of style. For fuck's sake, NASA was relying on the russians to put our astronauts into space until SpaceX took the torch. NASA is so horribly curtailed because of their funding that they're a functional shadow of what they were during the Cold War.


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MajorProblem50

Forced? That's what a public funding toward research should be for.


JG98

In this case you could make an argument that it shouldn't be since the NASA budget is pathetic. Funding for reinvestment into human advancement should get a pass in this case. Either that or they should up the NASA budget.


anormalgeek

The value to the economy as a whole is a net positive. NASA needs to be viewed as a enabler for the rest of the economy, not a "cost".


a_counterfactual

Privatizing public gains? That's what it should be for? lol. ok.


MeanderingDuck

I’m also not sure how any single government would stop them anyway. They’re going to space, not like you could only get there from US soil.


itsPomy

Yeah but the ships and facilities become property of the state. There's (some) oversight. If the government fucks up, you as a taxpayer can rally to make/vote a new bill or something to rectify how it'll operate. If a company fucks up...there's nothing you can really do but be angry at them cause its their business their way.


AmpleBeans

*If* a company fucks up, it’s their money and doesn’t affect you. *When* the government fucks up, they’ll just take more of your money and fuck up again.


Frekki

Ah yes. I remember when the 08 housing fuck up by the banking institution cost them billions of their own dollar. Oh wait. No it didn't. It cost taxpayers.


atelier_bml

Ever hear of Enron?


100WattCrusader

Companies have been taking, misusing, and abusing “your” money for a long time now.


Storm-Kerr

You mean like when BP dumped tons of crude oil all over the Gulf Coast causing hundreds of millions of dollars lost in tourism, fishing, and commerce? You mean like when Hedge funds caused an economic collapse in 2008 that affected the whole world and auto makers and investment firms got bailed out with taxpayer money?


Swolverine96

Except airports, car manufacturers, banks, etc all fuck up and taxpayer money is used to bail them out


Wlidcard

No shit! And the second my tax dollars are used to bail out a business, the government should take ownership of it, as we the people, have already paid for it. That's not Socialism or communism, that's me getting to keep what I have paid for.


IntrepidSjw

America is a corporate welfare nation. No matter how bad your business model may be the U.S. government is there to bail you out I guess. It’s a rigged system for those who stand at the top.


PLZBHVR

** if you're a massive corporation** they don't give a shit if small businesses die.


Singer-Funny

Wow I'm sure the Texas power companies fking up didn't affect anyone. Oh wait..... Don't forget the part where they gave receipt for tnes of thousands of dollars to some people.


whitehataztlan

>If a company fucks up, it’s their money and doesn’t affect you. Hasn't Blue Origin already begged for and gotten public funds? Their fuck ups do affect/cost us, theres just even less accountability when it's a private company.


Fishyswaze

Almost like they’re getting lucrative government contracts paid for by our tax dollars with 0 accountability to the tax payer.


calebcom19282y33

Tell me how much I wasn't affected by Deepwater Horizon.


JavaDavidson

I can think of about 100 people who lived in a condo in Miami who were personally affected by a company's fuck up.


Timmichanga1

Yeah man corporation fuck ups don't effect me at all! -signed, the people whose data was leaked by credit score companies they never consented to; the people who wells Fargo opened accounts in their name without their consent; the people who died in a building collapse because private contractors cut corners; people whose employers encouraged a 401(k) that was demolished just before retirement by a company fucking up. Idk man I could go on. I can't believe your defending companies. Like. We have years of evidence that they don't give two shits about human welfare in their endless pursuit of "growth" and "profit." There's gotta be a better system out there, right?


matorin57

Ideally yea, but that ignores the amount of tax payer money that is given to these companies. When we focus on private space r&d we have public funds given to private companies. Its the same with every other sector public funding is funneled into private companies.


Khanstant

What's the problem? Better to have the government in charge because they are accountable to the people, at least conceptually, and can steer projects to do things that are beneficial to people on purpose. Private efforts are only beholden to the law when it is too expensive to violate and they will be caught, and only do things beneficial to people incidentally sometimes in the pursuit of profit.


YddishMcSquidish

>The government doesn't create anything NASA has entered the chat


mlpr34clopper

You do get nasa doesn't build ships, the actual constuctuon is outsourced to private aerospace firms, and has been since before apollo, right? Lockheed, boeing, etc is who actually makes the stuff.


errantprofusion

Lockheed and Boeing would collapse in short order if the U.S. government stopped funding them, or if they weren't allowed to make use of other innovations funded by government.


Hypern1ke

yyyeeeaaaahhhh as a former NASA contractor, most of us working at Goddard are contractors lol.


eucr1d

I was a contractor with big tech companies. Guess who owns all the work I did while I was there.


poppyglock

The government built Hubble, the billionaires put a roadster in near earth orbit. Advancements in science that help everyone are more likely to be funded by tax dollars


MrMundus

The billionaires also build reusable rockets. Its silly to make this comparison and ignore that vast improvements in moving freight in space this will make, as well is the increase in travel safety this will bring. Not to mention the massive savings that have resulted in space travel as a result of private space companies.


KadanJoelavich

This is one of the biggest myths of the capitalist age. The idea that private companies provide innovation and create things and the government does not has been thoroughly debunked. The government and government funds (with regulatory strings attached) are directly responsible for most innovations.


redactedactor

You do that is by backing publicly-funded space exploration, not by complaining that private money is also getting involved. It's a Catch 22, most people would rather pay less tax than see state space missions but then turn around when complain when billionaires decide to fund it instead.


Gordon_Explosion

which is pretty much what happened. If NASA hadn't been defunded after the Moon race, the private companies would be playing catch-up now, instead of leading the way.


Ice-and-Fire

Inflation adjusted NASA's budget in 1969 was $34.5 billion. They are currently at $23.3 billion. Trump admin requested $25.2 billion. In 1974 their budget was (inflation adjusted) $25.3 billion. The height of NASA's funding was in 1966. Lowest points were the late 70s to early 80s, before ticking back up through the 90s and 2000s, then dropping from 2008-2015. They've been consistently budgeted between 15 and 25 billion for the past 50 years. The biggest issue that NASA has is that we've constantly changed its mission goals and prerogatives. The NASA SLS heavy launch system has already cost $2.5 billion per year, has not been delivered, and has an estimated launch cost between 500 million and 2 billion. Per launch. The shuttle program cost $1.5 billion per launch. Falcon Heavy is already in use, and the costs per launch have been between 90 and 150 million. Starship has a hoped for per-launch cost of $2 million. Probably going to be in the same range of the Falcon Heavy. Falcon 9 and Falcon 1 were completely developed for $390 million, according to NASA reviews of the development, per congressional testimony in 2017. The Falcon 9 costs $28 million to launch. The competition and drive of the private companies have done more in the past decade to advance and lower the cost of space exploration than the previous 40 years of work.


SpectreDoggo

Yeah, the way to help fix this is to increase funding for governmental space missions


itsPomy

Yeah I will say the people complaining about companies filling XYZ role but then also rail against funding it via the governance are a bunch of hypocrites.


DutchPhenom

I get that argument, but on the other hand, the Apollo programmes cost [hundreds of billions](https://www.planetary.org/space-policy/cost-of-apollo), and you could similarly say that maybe a government should focus its spending on poverty before it does on space travel. I'd actually think that is a stronger argument for gvt's than for private individuals.


LipshitsContinuity

I think if your argument is that spending on poverty takes big money and needs to come from somewhere, going to the little rocket agency that's already being given peanuts is not the place to go. Hunting down the little rocket agency when there's *huge* overspending in other areas is completely unreasonable. Military spending is *much much* greater than NASA.


DANGEROUS-jim

But hasn’t privatization historically been the way frontiers are ultimately developed? Especially with the historical development of the US and our industrial revolutions.


TheLegendDaddy27

Redditors would rather hold back advancements in space research than seeing private companies do it.


PopcornStamos

the way i see it advancement, by definition, involves leaving something behind. in the billionaires in space example i am in favor of halting advancement into space for fear of leaving behind the failing health of our planet. if jeff bezos had spent that money to fight against microplastics in the ocean or something like that i think it would have been better for humanity as a whole, especially since he didn’t do anything ground breaking with this trip from a scientific standpoint.


RogueChild

Then people should advocate for anti-trust laws and a more fair market in which corporations don't get as much power instead of practically advocating that we don't advance civilization.


itsPomy

Yeah that I would agree. I really hate this "Too Big to Fail" dilemma we've dug ourselves into.


Ice-and-Fire

We've seen more advancement in reusable rockets and space suits in the past 10 years than we had seen in the previous 40. Silly argument.


Saffs15

Saying "more advancement" honestly understates it by a long shot. Around 10 years ago, landing a rocket and reusing it was considered unachievable and pretty much nonsense. SpaceX straight up revolutionized what was thought to be possible in that area. They took the impossible and made it routine.


Ore0sRL

Lol nasa did it in earlier, but they found it impractical and expensive I believe Edit: nasa did reuse rockets but they weren't autonomously controlled


pmgoldenretrievers

NASA reused some shuttle components, but SpaceX has taken it to a whole new level. NASA even backed away from reusability they were so bad at it. That's why Ares and SLS are fully disposable. And why one SLS launch costs some 30 times more than a disposable FH.


SchmulyWormberg

If private industry can get into space more cheaply, efficiently and without a tedious web of government bureaucracy and bullshit, then I say let them have at it. Don't base your ideas of reality around Disney movies.


mabs653

it is cheaper. Lockheed Martin is way over budget and behind schedule building the new launch vehicle for nasa.


Ice-and-Fire

That's because Lockmart is playing the contractor game. Squeezing every dime out of it that they can because they're connected.


[deleted]

People don't understand just how much the space race advanced our technology. Not all through direct application, but they solved problems that allowed other products to exist. The camera in your phone is there because they needed high quality cameras small enough to fit on spacecraft. The scratch resistant coating on your glasses if you have them was developed for spacecraft. CAT scans were developed using digital imaging software from NASA. LED's, memory foam, wireless headphones, insulation, the computer mouse, and the modern version of a smoke detector are all direct results of space investment.


good_fella13

Velcro is less important but certainly nice too


_svenjolly_

Less important? How else do you keep your shoes on your feet? 😎


trololololololol9

Frito lays


usenrame_deleted

That was actually because of WW2. Not that it matters, just sharing useless knowledge. Edit: clarification, Frito Lays


thankyouspider

Velcro is the merging of the French words velour for the loops and crochet for the hooks. More useless knowledge.


usenrame_deleted

Completely useless information! I like the way you think.


PepperManP

Nasa popularized but did not create/invent hook and loop fasteners as it was commercialized by the Velcro Company in the mid 50s by a swiss engineer in Britain


GentlemansFedora

Swiss electrical engineer George de Mestral invented his first touch fastener when, in 1941, he went for a walk in the Alps, and wondered why burdock seeds clung to his woolen socks and coat, and also his dog Milka.[2][6] He discovered it could be turned into something useful.[5] He patented it in 1955,[2][5] and subsequently refined and developed its practical manufacture until its commercial introduction in the late 1950s.


Novosell

WW2 also brought tons of technological advancements.


MatiMati918

You forgot the most obvious thing: GPS.


manny_the_mage

Exactly this. Going to space creates technology that can advance life on Earth AND make future space travel easier (eventually). People genuinely act like we get *nothing* from going to space when that is far from the truth.


DilettanteGonePro

You're making excellent arguments for why we as a species should continue space exploration and research. IMO the jury is still out in a huge way on whether we will continue to see that same progress when private companies go to space rather than NASA or whatever. Personally I think the danger is that these companies will focus on very narrow applications like tourism and it will still give governments the argument that we don't need to fund a purely science-focused space program


boultox

And it's not just like the money gets destroyed. Thousands of jobs are created, circulating the money back into the economy.


GexTex

Very little of the money is actually blasted into space never to be seen again


Hank_Holt

There was this one car...


hydra-rising

Yeah but imagine the money circulating into the economy if they paid their taxes before worrying about going to space.


SilverbackGorillaBoy

The difference here is people have issues with the people doing it. Before, it was the entire world racing to push society forward. It was an actual advancement. Now billionaires are doing it just cuz, *while* getting tax kickbacks the the size of legit nations, just so they can play Buzz Lightyear and pay their employees like slaves? You legit think this is good? Lmao


geexlou

I don’t disagree that we shouldn’t continue to explore space, and trying to make living in space possible. But I do disagree that the billionaires doing this are doing it tax free and it’s actually being funded by us (Richard Branson I’m looking at you). Some of these people have spent how many years avoiding paying tax, and now so they can have a trip to space they’re making us pay for it? That’s what isn’t right. My tax money can go to better things, not your joy ride in space


SimbaOnSteroids

Not to mention all the life support tech we’re going to need have a glimmer of hope to survive climate change.


Bamith20

Private corporations are probably more likely to keep ownership of such things to themselves rather than just giving the idea to the world to improve on.


TypicalTart7

> The camera in your phone And just to kind of hit home OPs point. Why do we need cameras in phones when there are still poor people in the world? Why do we need smartphones or smart TVs? How on earth could anyone possibly do something like buy a PS5 *there are poor people in the world how could you be so selfish!!!* There are fewer people in abject poverty today than at any time basically since he late 1800s — the number is going down more and more each day and technological developments like this will likely help drive it down even more, albeit indirectly.


o0-SuperYellyFish-0o

Plus a ride in the Virgin Galactic ship cost $250000. That’s like a Ferrari but billionaires waste way more on yachts, private planes, etc.


wojoyoho

The key here is "developed by *NASA*". The socialist project called NASA. In the hands of the billionaires these future developments will be privatized and won't be nearly as beneficial for society.


Papaofmonsters

>The socialist project called NASA. Lol. You mean the project that contracted out almost all of the manufacturing to private companies?


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jaxxronald

I think it's more that they treat their employees terribly, don't pay them a living wage, and have horrible working conditions. But somehow they can afford to go play in space. I'm all for space exploration and the advancement of technology and science, but take care of your employees on earth first.


JoePapi

Moreover the physical labor jobs can mostly be replaced or enhanced with robots and technological advances not distributed. So the work is somewhat soul crushing if it can just be done easily by automation


RCO_

True, but at least that way they have a job.


PM_FORBUTTSTUFF

Not only that, but actively promoting politics that are destroying the planet while not so subtly planning your escape route off of said planet under the guise of scientific discovery is vile.


NormalHumanTedCruz

Yea, if anyone thinks this isn't going to end with rich people giving a giant middle finger to poor people as they leave this planet on fire to go to another one they are extremely niave. Not to mention taking workers so they don't have to clean their own space house and then charging those workers for every bit of oxygen needed. These same people will be like, "well what are they supposed to do? Give them FREE oxygen??"


wtjordan1s

I don’t this happening not because I don’t think rich people wouldn’t do that but because we won’t have enough time or resources before climate change fucks us up. It takes thousands of people to keep the international space station active and the person who was up there the longest said it was grueling mentally and physically. I think underground self sufficient bunkers is way more likely and probably already exist. Space is way cooler but far less practical.


Sam_Hunter01

People really underestimate the immense distances and travel times in space. The closest planet we could concievably attempt to colonize in our solar system is Mars. It is 7 to 8 months away and is a barren, almost oxygenless and waterless hellscape. If we base ourselves on the ISS construction, we'd need dozens of manned launches to create a base capable of housing (in very spartan conditions) half a dozen people tops. After that, launches must be sent every 1 to 2 month to supply the base with food, water, oxygen, clothes, etc. Only then we can start building facilities on Mars to exploit the local ressources and materials to attempt to make the base self sufficient, and slowly expand it. It'll require more launches to supply the needed starting materials and any tools the base can't produce yet. For all of those launches, mission and operations, any singular mystakes can obliterate years of effort and kill highly skilled personnel with no help able too reach them before 7 to 8 months. All of those difficulties to reach the closest colonizable planet from earth, and we didn't even start talking about long term terraformation and the like. Now let's put all that to perspective : Mars is roughly 22 light-minutes away from Earth. The closest star from our solar system, Alpha Centauri C (also known as Proxima Centori), is 4.3 light years away, thats roughly 102731 times farther than Mars. If we wish for humanity's future to be in the stars, we have to sort our shit out on Earth first, because we don't have any spare.


vS_JPK

We're living in the Elysium prequel


vivviviv

Correct. And the people cheering them on now will be in the rear view mirror wondering where their seat is. “Temporarily embarrassed millionaires”


Bensemus

lol Earth is where their yachts are. They aren't leaving Earth for decades or centuries. Mars will take centuries or longer to get colinized. Every billionaire live today will die living on Earth.


curtaisforlife

Totally agreed. I think this is the difference between a scientist choosing to explore the space instead of focusing on poverty problem ect and a billionaire “astronauts”


2tec

exactly, people don't understand, the greedy rich people will just turn earth into a ghetto while they live in a nice luxury space station and yes, there's already a movie about this


ProfessorCH

I agree with this completely, if they were upstanding corporations, I think they would be applauded by many. Paying employees even more than a living wage (the profit is there), treating employees well, paying taxes, not hiding capital gains, using loopholes, etc.


XA36

Yep, and billionaires paying to go to space and then CNN referring to them all as "astronaut Bezos" etc. Fucking christ, it's shameful to hear.


its_not_my_fault-

But the definition of astronaut is "a person who is trained to travel in a spacecraft.". And I'm sure most of them are being trained


XA36

They were literally tossed up in a bubble and fell down with a parachute. I think it's kind of an insult when people like Kalpana Chawla got two master's degrees and a PhD in engineering to earn the opportunity to be an astronaut, not people who profit from pandemics and own the Washington Post.


MumbleGumbleSong

And your taxes. Paying taxes and playing in space? Cool. Tax rate of 0% and playing in space? Not cool.


ExternalWhich8865

None of these people pay 0% taxes. Citation?


uninc4life2010

> But somehow they can afford to go play in space. While simultaneously writing it off as a business expense.


chadan1008

But just saying “billionaires shouldn’t go to space if there’s poverty on earth,” kinda oversimplifies the whole situation. The problem is they have so much excess wealth that they’re launching themselves into space for shits and giggles meanwhile people who are working for them are pissing in bottles and working multiple jobs to support themselves


DArkingMan

The more succinct point is that there shouldn't be billionaires at all, as long as poverty exists.


b0xcard

The problem is that they aren't sending actual scientists into space. They're just sending themselves. It's for their own vanity. Moreover, it's not like they can live in space. They have no means of colonizing anywhere. On top of that, just inhabiting a spaceship or station is strenuous beyond all belief. And you're constantly having to fix things. That's why astronauts are among the smartest and most physically fit people who spend years training to be in space. There's just no way guys like Branson or Bezos are anywhere as committed.


therealfuriousd

Agreed. They aren't going into space with new purpose, it's a step backward, and it's purely for fun (or profit/business/whatever you wanna call it). I'd say most people favor the advancement of exploration with a purpose, this is just rich dudes fucking around, because they can, because they don't pay enough taxes.


Pixelated_Piracy

if you think billionaires are going to space for altruistic reasons... they want to make space travel a business venture. simple. thats it. stop fooling yourself


AEnesidem

That is if 1. You buy into that narrative and 2. Ignore the entire context. 3. Think this is a scientific advancement. The first part you mention is neat but completely irrelevant to the billions of people needing food, water, money or other basic stuff right now. Should they really be happy that the richest man who makes money off underpaid workers is going to space and then will sell space rides to other obscenely wealthy people? This isn't a huge scientific leap. It's a commercial one. They want to commercialise space flight. At this very moment it's not much more than a joyride packaged in a neat narrative. And then you say it: we could do both. They are wealthy enough to do both. But that's not what's happening. What's happening is we get people so rich and so powerful they can fly off into space more efficiently than NASA while they underpay and profit off of the horrible treatment of people on the other end. Looks more like a dystopian scenario to me. So people like Bezos make sure people get paid shit wages in bad conditions and here you are, blaming the every day people who are the backbone of Bezos wealth to begin with, that they hold back humanity. Lay down the cool aid. Let's be honest for 2 seconds. The entire outrage is exactly about that discrepancy. It's not that hard to understand


demonicneon

While also lobbying against nasa essentially. This technology was funded by American tax dollars. Musk is privatising technology owned by the American people. I’m not American but I can see how fucked it is people giving him credit for the work of hundreds of government funded scientists and engineers and astronauts who risked their lives.


rainbowsandkittys

Agreed. I could care less about what a rich person does with their money, if they earned it themselves. But Jeff Bezos is someone who got rich off of other peoples suffering. Without his employees, he would be nothing. If you make your money by dehumanizing people and treating them like sub-human trash, you don’t deserve to do whatever you want with it His money could be going towards treating his employees like actual people, but he chooses to use it to further increase his own wealth and power. You’re completely right. He just wants to commercialize. That doesn’t do anything for “science,” he’s not getting into space travel for scientific reasons. He’s doing it for selfish reasons, to make himself richer. Worry about your fucking employees first, like he ever cared about them


luis_gs

Finally, someone said it. What kind of scientific advance could a billionaire tourist in space provide? I'm surprised some people really think that in the first place. While Bezos plays in space NASA is being heavily defunded with each presidency term.


gabopushups

"But he pays almost double the minimum wage" \- Some peasant defending the dragon who sits on the stack of gold in the mountain


atfricks

They have to to keep up with their insane turnover. They literally wouldn't be able to keep their warehouses manned paying any less, because the jobs are such absolute shit.


unklethan

Relevant article: https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-warehouse-turnover-worker-shortage-2021-6 TL;DR: Working for Amazon sucks so bad that people quit pretty fast. Cities with warehouses are running out of people who *aren't* fed up with working for Amazon. Who will we hire once everyone hates us?


Hairy_Air

I suppose he'll come over to India and exploit my countrymen for a while. Although we do have the tendency to hold strikes and riot every once in a while.


2pacalypso

Prison labor.


MehDub11

Regardless of how someone earned their money - anyone who owns a 500 million dollar yacht is a pretentious asshole. This man also spend $42 million...on having a fucking clock built.


urmomnotguy

I think that's the major issue with Reddit's pseudo intellectuals having a hard on for science vs actually being knowledgable let alone appreciative of it. For what reason should this be celebrated? Have we not gone to space before? Were new technologies invented solely to make this possible? Did the money really circle back into the economy or did we get double fucked by a leech that's pays nothing in taxes and gets $10 billion of your money that should've gone to organizations that actually advance science vs stroking a billionaire's ego? Isn't it bizarre that the ultra rich are coming up with such outrageous ways to spend their money because there's nothing on earth they can't already buy multiple times over?


noautisticsavant

No to mention, space travel isn't the only reason science and technology move forward. I bet if they put the same kind of money into environment-saving tech, or even deep sea exploration, we would see advances in these areas too.


instadramaalert

I don’t understand why they don’t just solve world hunger. Even if you’re a sociopathic narcissist with zero empathy, doing something like that would be the ultimate flex.


just-yeehaws

THANK YOU! Watch OP completely ignore this. The whole “we can do both” argument doesn’t mean shit when the rich people refuse to do so.


GarbageCleric

No one is arguing that "problems on Earth = never go to space". They're arguing that the fortunes of billionaires could be better spent. Also, poverty is holding humanity back right now. How many geniuses never reach their full potential because they struggle to eat and get an education?


happyhippychicky

🤔 hmmmmmm….. we’re smart enough to end poverty AND engage in space tourism? 💁‍♀️ maybe we should eat our poverty eradication veggies before we partake of space tourism dessert.


T00lf00l1991

Thinking that it'll be simpler in any way to terraform space rather than fixing issues on earth will ensure neither happens


half_empty_optimist

I think the point is that: These billionaires are spending gratuitous amounts of money to go to space yet find ways to weasel out of their taxes. By doing this they contribute largely to the growing divide between the rich and the poor as well as the shrinking middle class. To see these billionaires then prance around spending money like water to make their spaceships and take it to space is a slap in the face to the people they’ve had to exploit in order to get there. People like Jeff bezos siphon money off of the people who can’t afford to ethically sourced their everyday needs. He drains Americans of their hard earned paychecks only to then turn around and exploit the system so that he doesn’t have to put some of that profit back into the economy.


DeltaNexus1995

Ya if they paid their fair share of taxes then by all means go to space as much as you want. Buy as many yachts as you want I don't care


Shaqtothefuture

These billionaires are so rich they literally ran out of fun and exciting ways to spend their vast vast amount of money. Unfortunately helping the poor, sick, and hungry doesn’t excite these tax dodgers the same way as getting in a rocket and getting launched into orbit does. The real problem with capitalism is extreme wealth changes people into self obsessed lunatics.


[deleted]

[удалено]


malyschtadt

This is incorrect. There is one, HUGE difference. The rocket will come back to earth and is reusable. This is especially true for SpaceX rockets. This is a massive technological advancement. Reusable rockets dramatically reduce the cost of sending payload into space, thus making any potential space ventures far more feasible. Before (the times you mentioned) rockets where only single use.


whatrpeople

That’s how you get investors to support things though. You make space related tech relevant and tangible to them rather than having it as some abstract.


[deleted]

If you're talking in general terms, this is absolutely false. Elon Musk is going to drive the price of a space launch below $10 million, and he thinks he can drive it down to $2 million, which is a surreal technological advance. Imagine how cheap it would be to construct private works in the future with more efficient boring tools, as long as there's competition. They definitely aren't doing enough to solve the other problems though


Big_Red12

"Traditionally it takes the super rich to solve these scientific problems." What? Did they even do any experiments? These were literally joyrides into space. I preferred when billionnaires used to spend their extra money on creating libraries and music halls.


d710905

I think most intelligent people understand that and how scientific advances that comes with space travel is necessary. What frustrates people is that these guys should be taxed more and then that money should go to important matters here on earth. Which I can understand. They have such absurd amounts of wealth there's no excuse why they couldn't be taxes more and use that money to helping to fund other things for the country. If individual people have the funds to do what actual governments and coalitions of nations do they have too much and clearly should be taxed more as their fund can go towards helping the country. Plus I can understand why people are against privatizing space. I don't support that. That's exactly how you get the wall-e ship memes. Amongst other things like more opportunities for them to charge out the ass for things. And finally, I think this is the most important thing to remember: there are alot of people who genuinely do not care one bit about space travel. Some think of it as a nuisance. And would be okay with technology stayed where it is now. These people literally do not care about any of that and they just want health care and for problems here on earth to be taken care of. I know people like this. They want hunger eradicated, homes for the homeless, Healthcare for all, etc etc. So definitely keep that in mind, because there's definitely more of those people who couldn't give one once of care to space travel than you might think. I know a few myself


RICoder72

False Dichotomy edit: To be clear, you are correct that this is a stupid argument because it is a fallacious argument and you are also correct that this is a sadly unpopular opinion.


Tandros_Beats_Carr

as an engineer, the space situation bothers me because they aren't accomplishing anything. It is a fucking vanity project. "SpAce TouRisM is tHe FuTuRe." Yeah, because all humanity needs is more people blasting onto space and creating fucktons of unnecessary waste to gawk at the view. I can 100% gaurantee you that any important or helpful human occupation of space is at least probably hundreds of years away. We literally do not have the tech for this to even be worth pursuing. We do not even have the knowledge of science to develop the kind of tech we need for it to be truly meaningful. We aren't going to be mining asteroids or terraforming mars or planting solar gardens on the moon anytime soon, sorry. The science community needs to lsow tf down and focus on fixing problems here rather than dumb attempts to go to space that are totally impractical and unsustainable EDIT: holy fuck this blew up, wtf. Also tons to controversy. I'm not answering many of these comments cause it would take way too long and most of them kinda just piss me off, but I'll address a few points people keep bringing up. 1. "yeah I agree but elon musk is different and will send us to MaRs WoRLd" - read my long post about why elon musk and spacex are unimpressive https://www.reddit.com/r/lostgeneration/comments/mwilbt/a_rant_against_elonism_and_the_stem_community/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf 2. "Then you are a sucky engineer if you don't realize the value of 4 minute vanity trips" - Yes, I do recognize the value of pushing limits. Hell we got microchips from the apollo research and that changed the world. The problem is that we are hitting some fundamental limits to current technology and the currently known fields of science, and the "inventions" that come with these journeys aren't revolutionary at all. There needs to be a massive breakthrough into entirely new realms of understanding and science before there will be any kind of meaningful ability to send people to space for any purpose other than sight-seeing. For instance, as long as we rely on physical combustion propulsion, Mars colony is a fucking joke. Who knows, maybe a genius will find out tomorrow that all of einstein's models forgot to account for some newly discovered behavior of reality, and science will be totally rewritten and we will suddenly know how to build time machines and propulsionless warp speed. But that is 100% not the goal of these dumb launches, and if anything it is draining money away from real research that might revolutionize the world in some kind of way like that. They are trying to do this before our understanding of science has foubd a way to allow it on a very fundamental level. Most of this shit has been done before and with less funding and equipment. Nothing about these billionaire launches is truly new or impressive. Sorry, but it isn't pushing limits to send a rocket to what barely counts as space for 3 minutes and find a way to land it with minimum junk. The only thing they are pushing is who the richest person in space will be. 3. "You just hate space because you're a socialist" - umm, seriously, the fuck? Why do people keep saying things along these lines? And yes, I am a socialist. I also have a mole on my ear and a slightly undersize penis. Anything else unrelated you want to discredit my opinion with lol?


nonuniqueusername

Hey hey hey! Sir you are disrupting the circle jerk of people who call themselves science enthusiasts and really just like pretty pictures of stars with quotes on them.


jewnicorn27

Just to be clear, are you putting spacex in the same camp as origin and virgin?


0riginal_Poster

I've never been more sceptical of someone's claim that they're an engineer


namelessuser

How’re we going to achieve the tech to make space occupation practical if we don’t go to space? Isn’t the space race what drove research and development in the first place? Was that a “good” reason to do anything?


ralusek

As an engineer: this person is big dumb. > We literally do not have the tech for this to even be worth pursuing Hey, that's what engineers and scientists are responsible for developing. > they aren't accomplishing anything Development of production reusable rockets isn't accomplishing anything?


peterrocks9

Also an engineer: if you don’t set and push towards lofty goals you will never achieve them. Also, the innovations you need to create along the way can have an immeasurable impact in other areas or industries. There is enough manpower and there are enough resources to expand space exploration / commercialization as well as fix the multitude of problems on Earth. To say we need to pick one or the other just isn’t accurate.


hieverybod

You’re an engineer but can’t see the value of reusable rockets and increasing the reliability of space flight.


acmemetalworks

"Human occupation of space...hundred years away" Screencap this.


[deleted]

>The science community needs to lsow tf down and focus on fixing problems here rather than dumb attempts to go to space that are totally impractical and unsustainable That's not how science works. That's not how *any* of this works.


kat_d9152

Thats exactly the thing. Not the not fixing poverty, per se, but NOT FIXING THE EARTH. It will take a lot of hard work, investment and brain power to inhabit other planets, as you mention in your own question. IMO that energy should go into reeling us off the environmental cliff we are balancing on. Seriously, I want to hear how much they are investing into fixing THIS PLANET. Those of us old enough to remember Moonraker (or Kingsmen for the younger crowd) knows most of humanity DOES NOT get a ticket to the intergalactic country club. Fuck them if all they're working towards is a new way to spew bundles of extra carbon just so some rich dicks can enjoy shits and giggles. FIX THIS WORLD FIRST. Yeah, Musk gets kinda a pass for his work on solar, although he is distinctly the most creepy "Elite Space Colony" building guy. But there's more than one of them in this celestial circle-jerk. FIX THIS PLANET ECOLOGICALLY FIRST.


Jungiya99

Lol it’s an unpopular opinion


wolfenstein1998

Maybe on Reddit


Tim_Trash

Blue Origin and Virgin Galactic are just fun little 'adventures' for multimillionaires. Mankind has been putting people in space for 60 years. This isn't a massive leap forward in terms of space travel. On the other hand, SpaceX is actively moving humanity forward. Their rocket programs are creating valuable, practical services for actual people and NASA. I think Elon Musk is one of the biggest assholes on two feet but I'll give him credit where it's due At least his submission to the billionaire rocket dick swinging contest is useful


Switch_Pikachu

Please correct me if I am wrong but all the money these billionaires are spending on space crafts still goes back into the economy, like surely it doesn’t just disappear?


Apprehensive-Web-112

As a society we need people who can really advance the human species. Johnny making $9/hour at McDonalds won’t change the world. Elon Musk, who has enough money to be able to afford to really change our world, he is the one who can really do things that help lots of people


Gerganon

"But I genuinely believe that humanity's future is in space" This is the false premise that makes the "unpopular"opinon, just plain wrong.


PapuJohn

Shit take. Truly an unpopular opinion though so big ups on that I suppose.


nils22263

>Billionaires shouldn't go to Space Says Emily from her private Villa while sipping Margarita .


numba1mrdata

'limousine leftists'


jayo53

Grug thinking… grug no think clan should leave cave… grug worried about cave problems… solve cave problems before grug leave cave


suptenwaverly

Don’t worry, humanity will continue to hold back humanity, you can bet on that.


OmgBsitka

There will always be poverty. No one can change my mind. There will never be a utopia. It's impossible.


endedember

upvoted because fucking stupid opinion


throwaway77993344

upvoted because fucking stupid opinion


IronCorvus

I like to assume most people who think the mega rich should just give away their wealth wouldn't give away their wealth if they were mega rich either. It's easy to say "if I were rich..." That kind of money changes people. And they do donate. No matter the level of philanthropy, they will always be criticized for not giving away their money. And I'm not defending them either. But I'll tell you what; if I fell upon a few million, my first reaction isn't going to be to just start giving it away. Their assets are definitely not as liquid as people think they are.


NegaJared

lets just let em fill earth with shit and then abandon it. truly an unpopular opinion.