T O P
Swawks

PvZ is awful too, and so is PvP. Hmmm, i'm seeing a pattern here.


[deleted]

PvP: Whoever has more immortals wins


Elcactus

It’s archons. Immortals don’t do anything to zealots so the guy with archons left first wins as his zealot reinforcements will annihilate the opponents witch archon support and the immortals will fall to the guy with zealots left.


[deleted]

Its a running meme in case you haven't noticed, I wasn't being serious.


Taldan

I have never heard of it, and I'm on here quite a bit. I don't think you can call something a meme if very few people have heard of it.


[deleted]

In fact Immortals are way overhyped in PvP by casters, and unless you're either talking about one base All-Ins like 3 Gate Prism/proxy Robo, OR very high supply numbers, the Chargelot/Archon count is a lot more impactful in direct engagements. Edit: idk if you care/are interested, but this has been a long on-going "issue" already. Even before the current meta, when every game was harass tech into 8 gate/templar into unsaturated 3rd into +2 attack Immortal/Archon/Zealot timing, casters were unreasonably hyped about one player being at 4 or 5 Immortals instead of 3 - while 3 was the "golden number", because you simply couldn't get more in time without either missing your +2 window or having delayed your Forge earlier in favor of more/faster Immos, resulting in a later timing anyway


[deleted]

Again, its not an overhype, its a meme, its a joke. You'd think that protoss players would know one or two protoss matchup jokes. The reason why this is a thing is because in the past (like 3-4 years ago?), it was indeed more immortals = win


[deleted]

maybe you were making a joke, although I highly doubt that... but the casters many times aren't. And that's blatant spreading of misinformation. Sure, it's without any evil intent, but it's still resulting in... well, threads like this


[deleted]

Well, I haven't heard any casters saying the immortal = win meme seriously. You haven't been watching WCS, have you?


[deleted]

was too busy playing in it.


[deleted]

On Blizzard's behalf, thanks for your post. The last 5 billion salty platinum players only complaining without any proper game knowledge, and hence a lack of a logical solution, were ignored, but we thought yours was the one that tipped the scales, so now we'll change everything


chobolicious88

He is giving his customer feedback. It is not his job to provide the solution. Plenty of sc2 changes were introduced for platinum heroes and lower in the past. I dont necessarily agree with how gaming industry and market works, but that is the deal in this day and age. Your reply was no more constructive than his post.


[deleted]

you sure have no idea how any of this works


chobolicious88

I believe I very much do, actually. This is Reddit, a discussion website. The guy shared how he feels about an area of a product he is consuming. Maybe someone else feels the same as him, and goes through similar struggles or maybe someone disagrees and elaborates why, both are fine. It does not however change the guys original experience nor diminish his right to express and share it. No one is forcing you to read every single thing someone writes on the internet. Could he have dissected his game to isolate problematic areas, ask questions to improve his play or even suggest changes or quality of life improvements - sure, would it have been beneficial for him - probably, yeah.. but he is by no means obliged to do so. After all maybe he just wants to vent. I fail to see how your snide sarcastic replies or teling people to zip it offers more value than his post? You could have just as easily directed him into that path if you wanted to. But I guess you sure know how all of this works. Maybe all the recent TvP complaining leads to game changes, maybe not. You dont need to analyze a product let alone offer suggestions to be able to state how you feel about consuming it and what your experiences are. Its certainly not the most productive way to go about it if your goal is to be constructive, but this is by no means an in house Blizzars board. How they gather feedback and what they decide to wage in is up to them, not you.


[deleted]

it's kind of funny how kids like you are always quick about pounding your rights to express yourselves, while forgetting that the right to have and voice your opinion does neither automatically validate it, nor protect you from being made fun of for it if it's ridicoulos. The latter which would be my right. And I will continue to use it. When someone brings up a constructive argument, I reply in fashion. If someone does what that whining kid and you, apparently his SJW boyfriend, do - they get laughed at. Simple as that. Now back to tumblr or wherever your kind hangs out these days


chobolicious88

The guy shared his experience, it is not an opinion that needs to be validated or disproved, it just is. Where you go from there is another matter. If the experience is unrelateable, the community should point it out like you said. But if there is “5 million plat people” saying the same thing, i dont think it is unrelateable. You contradict yourself. I called you out not due to the reasons you cite, but because you seem very vocal without backing anything up, as well as the fallacies that come with your posts. A trait you dont seem to tolarate with others. It seems to me that you dont like plat people being vocal about their views which is imho what the disagreement comes down to, and what i personally dont agree with because: 1) it has already been the case that the sc2 was balanced around lower levels 2) doing the previous can be done without affecting the top level balance 3) both is pretty much what you do in todays market when you have a dedicated team of devs supporting a game for 10 years As I said, personally I liked it back when games were treated with less input from the community, with more freedom and ownership within the studios but this is not 90s anymore. Instead, you just replied in adhoc fashion and decided to act like toxic trash. Good job man


[deleted]

see above


TheWinks

Players as a group are very good at recognizing problems. They aren't great at finding solutions. Presenting solutions doesn't really matter, only pointing out problems.


[deleted]

> Players as a group are very good at recognizing problems but not the root of the problems, which in 99% of cases on this website, is own ignorance or incompetence. And that makes this whole thing redundant.


TheWinks

>They aren't great at finding solutions Solutions address the root of the problems, at least in theory. Doesn't mean you can't identify problems.


Taldan

Everyone has incompatible, conflicting, ideas of what is a problem in the game. Him making a post about how he doesn't find the match up fun isn't helpful because even if he is right about what is and isn't a problem, there is no way for Blizzard to separate that from just pointless complaints without more details and a more precise description of the issues.


TheWinks

No they don't. Protoss is a problem. It diminishes the fun of non protoss players. The only people that disagree with that are protoss exploiting that problem.


[deleted]

I don't have any problem with Protoss. Actually, the only thing I hate about Protoss is playing them. I cannon rushed to plat and quit after that. Then I played Terran and Zerg at a 75-25% ratio. Approximately.


[deleted]

Did you miss the part where the root of the problem was their incompetence? Meaning there is no solution needed apart from becoming a good player or shutting your mouth?


Likethefish1520

Idk how terrans can play tvt and think protoss is the most unfun terran matchup. It's like, the epitome of the 1 engagement matchup, you literally sit tank lines and stare at each other until someone fucks up then bam it's over. The matchup plays by rules that feel so un-starcraft and there's so many specific situations where if your opponent knows one tiny thing you don't it's like fucking over with no regards to mechanics or macro or anything, just one stupid aspect of the game or position or something and bam game over. I mean, sure if for some reason you're trying to play bio and you're total ass at the game and play a unit composition you can't control constantly dying to storms I can see why toss would feel unfun EDIT: hey I totally agree with the stim thing though, that has been such a requested change for so long and seems so simple I have no idea why it currently is the way it is


rowrin

Honestly TvT is imo the best mirror matchup and overall is probably only behind TvZ. Positioning and zoning actually matter in that your tank lines aren't just overrun at will. There's more than just 1 way to play the matchup, bio, marine-tank, mech. etc. All the other mirrors seem very statically defined in that there is a standard procedure that is always followed.


Taldan

Huh, you're definitely an outlier. I've never really heard someone that actually really enjoys TvT. It's definitely my least favorite matchup.


Washikie

I mean not really, TVT is characterized by the insane defenders advantage terran have against their breathern due to sige tanks 2 or 3 shotting literally everything terran can make. Although this can make it very difficult to leverage a lead into a win outside of the early game raven timings, it also makes for a prity dynamic matchup. positioning in tvt is so much more fun and impactfull than any other match up. The only match up that is even close to being as positional is late game zvz when lurkers are out. ​ Also unlike tvp tvt has a good rotation of early game stratagies in builds, take the current NA meta because people where proxying alot of reapers people started going 2 reapers and a hellion, but because evrey one was doing this people quit proxyng reapers and also quit moving out with thier units. so now people are making extra reapers and hellions to catch you off gaurd, but the counter to this is to not go reapers and hellions and go into faster riens and tanks. but this build is weeker vs proxy reaper so the meta keeps rotating. ​ in tvp on the other hand toss is realy strong till terran has the 2 base allin army. Terran pushes with the 2 base allin army. the game is decided by how this push lines up vs protos's build. the end.


[deleted]

Well, at the moment it seems like the matchup of whoever can execute the double raven opener push better.


Terxel

i stronlgy disagree, TvT is so much about being in the right position and scouting your opponents moveout, balancing between expanding and making units, deciding when to get upgrades and engagements can almost always go either way


EccentricJoe700

tbh i agree with this. tvt is brutal, always been my least favorite. i do think toss is a little strong rn, but like i think pretty much everyone is in agreement that the main issue is the prism. just make it slower or reduce pickup range or limit the amount of warp ins it can do etc.. like 100 changes to it have been proposed and i think most of them would do the trick, just depends what blizzard want the prism to be, but overall it can be fun still


mywifeforhired

Zealots tankiness is absurd aswell


EccentricJoe700

they are really tanky but i dont think they are broken in anyway, they are destroyed by libs and mines. it really all comes down to the warp prism for me


Terxel

This is so wrong, Like i can tell you're not a terran player. TvT is extremely dynamic. You need to have map vision everywhere, you need to be ready for every angle your opponent can attack, you need to find a balance between expanding and making units, you need to know when to attack, where to attack and hbow to attack, you need to know when to make vikings, when to make medivacs and when to make liberators, you need to know when to get upgrades. TvT is not decided by just 1 engagement, that is simply wrong. Very often TvT is decided by the things that happen outside of an engagement. For example if Player A moves out and Player B scouts the moveout (which he should always do by having marines on the map) and then manages to keep Player A away from his base by sieging up tanks and responding while doing a drop into the opponents base, cancelling for example a 4th, killing workers on the 3rd or whatever else then Player B should win the next engagement, since he jnust has way more units. All this leads to a matchup in which you have an insane amount of possibilities, while macro is the hardest in TvT (bio v bio) imo since you have to make so many marines and every mistake for example not making tanks for some time from factories can be very punishing, a lot more than in the other matchups. I feel like TvT is very very skill rewarding (after the early game i make X reapers and Y hellions and sometimes the game just ends), and extremely fun.


begentlewithmyheart

I like TvP more than TvT but honestly TvT feels like the least '1 engagement,' matchup out of all of them, the only exception is doom drops or the first 6/7 minute, but every mu is a 1 engagement matchup if it ends in 6 or 7 minutes.


[deleted]

The stim request is dumb. Just use multiple hotkeys. It's that easy. Just because ghosts have a bio tag from doesn't mean they have to be hotkeyed with Marines and maurauders.


Beyondlimit

If feel like every ZvP turns into Immortal vs Zerg. I despise that unit so much. I had more fun against colossi and disruptor


EzioAs

Dude, I bet every Protoss wish they can make Colossus and Disruptors part of a standard play but they're not really viable. I wouldn't worry to much about ZvP though. Either look at Dark's game and see how he plays and adapt to it or just wait for the next patch which would likely nerf Immortal + Warp Prism plays in some ways (which shouldn't be too far off).


Washikie

I realy wish that stalker disruptor was the standard vs zerg, its a way more skillfull and interesting composition than the stuff we see right now.


Uninspire

What the fuck? Lmao, when did colossi and disruptor become ‘not viable?’ They’re perfectly viable, just outshined


EzioAs

Colossus can be somewhat viable but it's even riskier than going Mutas in ZvP. Disruptors are really just viable to kill Infestors.


Uninspire

Disruptors are viable against any pre-hive unit except maybe lings lmao. They fell out of meta when swarmhosts came INTO meta close to a year ago- that’s the real reason we don’t see them as much.


Taldan

Swarmhosts are a lair unit.


Uninspire

Yeah, I guess that’s the only other pre-hive unit they’re bad against


EzioAs

Adding to the real reason is that Disruptors are just clunky in general vs Zerg. Maybe you can kill some Roach or Ravagers with it but it doesn't transition well and is just not very good vs Zerg, that's why I said they're not viable. Not totally useless but, not really what you want vs Zerg.


Mangomosh

Immortal and Zealots are to most low effort, boring, brain dead units. Its so bad that the whole protoss strength is put on those units


Nerthym

Sure, so are hydra and roaches. I'd say those are even simpler to max on and just a-move. For the reference I was protoss main like a year ago, playing exclusively Z and T now. I don't understand much of the complaints really, seeing both sides. I would however say that Zealots are definitely too strong for the cost after charge, but I would not say that they are any more boring or 'braindead' than roaches.


Mangomosh

Completely different type of units. Hydras and roaches have units that absolutely obliterate them by their own.


Taldan

That's a good point. Unless Zerg gets something like the baneling that can obliterate chargelots, it's incredibly imbalanced. And the fact that you have to make hydras or lings to counter immortals is pretty imba


Mangomosh

The problem is that banes barely trade efficiently against a toss and immortals two shot lings and trade pretty well against hydras. Chargelots and immortals are just too good against everything


Taldan

Yeah... we should nerf the prism though. That way immortals and zealots have less micro potential


Born_to_Be

As a viewer, tvp looks pretty good right now, actually better than most times during the history of sc2. Terrans are using BCs AND MECH! WTF! I guess they are just salty they can't beat everything with bio drops and stutterstep anymore :D ZvP on the other hand looks quite limited and seems to be getting stale quickly.


Washikie

Terrans were using bcs and mech, alot of this play style has been figured out now, most tvp you watch now its back to bio and kill them before they get their. if for some insane reason terran makes it to late game not 3 basses and 2 upgrades behind toss, than bcs can play a role.


DarmokNJelad-Tanagra

Yes, it's same in ZvP. vP matches are just not good right now. It is NOT Protoss players' fault, though. The quality of games has been just BAD lately in both TvP and ZvP. Silly one-fight-determines-everything kind of games. Professional Protoss all-in zerg because it is disproportionately effective. Zerg either holds, or they dont, gg. The worst kind of Starcraft.


goatkingdeluxe

I agree that storm really sucks to face. Otherwise I really like the tvp


Swawks

I'd rather face storm 1000 times than face colossi. Templars are slow and you can somewhat punish that even with no ghosts, colossi are just the biggest amove unit in the game. Never in 10 years of Starcraft have i heard from casters ''His colossi control is really good.'' The unit is designed to be unmicroabled.


EzioAs

Tanks are in the same vein as well. Nobody praises tank micro in siege mode. The most these units can do on their own is target fire.. Casters have hyped and praised some Colossus + Warp Prism plays but that's really the extend of those units. The same can be said about Tank + Medivac micro as well but thaty even more rare. That aside, StarCraft and StarCraft 2 is an RTS game with plenty of units to be utilized. The Collosus by itself doesn't lead to victory, and is always supported by other units, just like any other army composition.


Swawks

Colussus+ Warp prism has more to do with the prism than the colossi. Just like saving thors with medivacs has nothing to do with Thors being interesting. I heavely disagree on tanks, they're the most positional and strategic unit in the game and the reason mapmakers have to test their maps multiple times for tank spots. Tanks are in my opinion the best designed Terran unit, their ''micro potential'' might not be high but their strategic and positional potential is huge. Even Blizzard seems to have a fetish for them because in both expansions they released a unit that works similarly to the tank(widow mines and libs.) Should have said Thors if you wanted a Terran comparison, the best you can do with that unit depends on a medivac. Its even more unmicroable than the Colossus because you can't kite with it or pull back because its slower than a snail. When WoL released people said colossi were ''A tank that doesn't have to siege and that can shoot at close units.'' >That aside, StarCraft and StarCraft 2 is an RTS game with plenty of units to be utilized. The Collosus by itself doesn't lead to victory, and is always supported by other units, just like any other army composition. That doesn't mean the unit is interesting, it got unit walking so it barely has to interact with the army around it. When you Zealot archon immortal in PvP is not high on micro potential by itself, but you always have to be aware of where each unit is so they fill their role( can't have immortals blocking your archons for one). Colossi don't even have that sort of basic interaction, because they walk over army and over lots of terrain.


Taldan

> I heavely disagree on tanks, they're the most positional and strategic unit in the game and the reason mapmakers have to test their maps multiple times for tank spots. I just want to point out if mapmaker time testing spots is the bar we judge positional and strategic unit, that would make the photon cannon the most positional and strategic unit in the game :D


EzioAs

Well, I don't agree with you on the interesting part. It fills a very specific role in certain composition, similar to Tanks and Banelings. If you don't like Colossus, there should be no reason for you to like Banelings as well because all they do is close splash damage and die. And just like the Colossus + Warp Prism thing, they (Banelings) can be more enjoyable with Burrow but again, it's not something you see everyday. Like i said before, by itself, the Colossus is useless and only with the right supporting units are they really viable, which to me lends to an interesting dynamic between them and the opposing composition. And StarCraft is an asymmetric game anyway, we shouldn't expect a Colossus to work exactly like a Siege Tanks. Otherwise, what's the point of having 3 different races?


Swawks

Banelings are a case of a unit that interacts with your composition and the opposing composition. It forces splits/force fields and it encourages flanks and surrounds from Zerg, even without burrow. And thats not even mentioning runbys and drops. The colossi sit parked on top of your army and that's where they'll always should be. ''This unit needs support units, therefore its interesting'' is not an argument, every unit in the game needs support units. From the dumbest to the most microable.


EzioAs

Well, these days Terrans have Ravens that can disable Colossus to take a better engagement and I really much enjoy that. Because of how the Ravens work, Protoss have to work around the Raven to make sure the Colossus stays relevant when the Terran push comes, either by sniping the Raven or moving their Colossus out on the map to force quick Interference Matrix and then pulls back later. For me, that is also an interesting mechanic. Is the Raven by itself a good design unit? I'm sure you can say no to that as well right? It's a mobile air detector, that builds up energy and cast some very interesting spells, which will only be interesting if it's supported by and interacts with the right units. StarCraft is not a game of pure micro. You might think Marine's splitting against Banelings is fun and I agree with you, but there's also the enjoyment of watching strategic/tactical plays like taking the right engagements or forcing your opponents to waste the effectiveness of their key units (the Raven and Colossus in this case).


Washikie

banelings are a much more interesting unit. 1. they require good micro, once terrans learn to split zerg have to learn to split their banes to hit the larger clumps of bio, banes also are themselves vulnerable to aoe and so clumping all your banes is a good way to loose a huge amount of expensive units to widowmines and tanks 2. their is powerful and impact full counter micro, vs colosi the best you can do is run a marauder forward and maybe soak 1 shot. 3. their is interesting decision making often zerg can throw games even though they won a fight if they used their banes to inefficiently to win that fight. 4. banes don't snowball. Banelings tend to scale reasonably as the game goes on, early on banes are countered by micro latter they are countered by higher tech units like mines, tanks, and thores. ​ on the other hand collosi are just strong when amoved, you can do some fancy micro as the protoss player with them, using pick ups, kiting back ect but for the most part they are a straight amove unit. The answer for the other races is to have enough anti air units to kill them before they melt your army, not much interesting going on their. the unit reduces most fights to a numbers game.


EzioAs

I don't agree on the straight amove part. You said Zergs have to micro Banelings to focus on bigger clumps of bio and the (almost) same can be said about Colossus. If you don't target fire the right units, then Colossus is not really doing it's job and assuming armies of equal value and upgrades, the Protoss will most likely lose then. I feel like people are starting to complain about Colossus more because this is the period where we see Colossus being used more and more compared to the last 3 years or so. Just guesswork, but it could be that average players don't really know how to work around Colossus plays because it's been quite a while since it's been relevant in the meta and just assume it's a badly designed unit, just like how a lot average Joes say Protoss is a poorly designed-race. Not to mention that the current Colossus is even weaker compared to pre-LotV. I'm getting kinda tired of replying to this thread (I'll just lurk from now on) so I'll just close it out here with a question: If you think Colossus is poorly designed and somehow un-microable thus you can s**t on them, how comes Tanks, Liberators, Widow Mines, Banelings and Broodlords that works kind of similar to the Colossus are fine?


Washikie

I mean I think part of the problem is that in this meta that kind of finness is just not required to use collsos and be very effective with them. usualy straight amoving suffices. ​ Those other units are fine 1 because they requite more control to set up, 2 becuase they require more positioning to use effectively and 3 because their is powerfull counter micro and tactics to deal with each of them ​ also banes do actualy require quite alot of micro. frequently i see high level toss just amove collosi, almost never do i see high level zerg amove banes. ​ I would be alot more ok with collosi if Protoss could not mass recall them if they got cought out of position. Right now collosi have all the benifits of a slower more powerfull unit but without any of the weeknesses because recall is to strong.


Washikie

I mean at least tanks dont move around in siege mode. thier is skill involved in getting them to the correct positions where they are threatining. colosi just walk around murdering anything not supported by siege units.


ilikewc3

It's pretty good at running away though.


abrakasam

I'd much rather use templar than colossi too. Unmicroable and annoying to keep alive, easy to see why they've fallen out of favor


Washikie

yeah i mean storm in and of itself is not all that skillfull, but at least templars can be punished by good positional play due to thier slow but strong design. and protoss can use them more or less skillfully by not waisting storms, spliting them up. droping them in prisms. positioning them vs drops. they are a more versitile and interesting unit than collosi.


Taldan

I take it that you're not familiar with the dynamic between storm and EMP? I'd be surprised if anyone who understands how the back and forth of that still thinks EMP/storm fights aren't skillful.


Washikie

I was specifically saying that casting storm is not that skillful, given the overall low apm nature of a protoss deathball I'm hardly ever impressed by someone landing "#beautiful storms" and yeah emp can stop storms but good protoss will either put them behind the army or in the prism, which negates this mechanic entirely.


[deleted]

The fact that colossi can be loaded up into warp prisms to be unkillable is the last straw for me, that's just complete BS


Taldan

That's part of balance. Ghosts can be loaded up into medivacs as well. The difference is EMP has a longer range and radius than storm and takes HT energy, while prisms have a much longer range than medivacs. It's also a huge risk to pick up expensive units. A prism with templars is 400/600, with very little health. EMP also does all damage immediately, whereas storm has the ability to kill units. Races are balanced differently, and your views on balance are far too simplistic.


EzioAs

I disagree. For me, PvT has always been one of the best matchup from a viewer perspective for a very long time. Yes, there's been a couple brief periods where it leans toward one race or the other but recently, and while I do play Protoss as a main, I don't really mind seeing the result whether it's a Protoss or a Terran. What I like about it most is the constant aggression and great harassment tools that both sides have (one could argue that Terran has slightly less harassment tools at the later stage of the game but that's another story). If you look at Innovation's and SpeCial's TvP recently, or the recent Clem games from WCS, you can see the potential enjoyment a viewer can get out of the games if Terran really brings their A-game. You can say that all of them lost to Protoss at some stage in their tournament, but you know what? I was rooting for Showtime, Neeb, Stats and sOs (and herO) but all of them lost to the Terran players I've mentioned here, and I'm absolutely fine with it. The reason I'm okay with that is because I think the meta now, has kinda settled (and shifted a little bit) than during the recent GSL Super Tournament (and even then, we get to see Maru and Gumiho playing outstanding games against Stats). Plus the matchup has that tug-of-war feel from during the HotS days of PvT or what most people would describe TvZ as. The difference in PvT compared to TvZ though, is that the aggression and harassment are even more profound for PvT. Both sides tend to lean on attacking one or the other at every stage in the game because both sides know the strength of the race at different parts of the game (Terrans power spike in the mid-game, Protoss later on and some Protoss don't even like to play late-game vs Terran because they don't really feel confident there). The only issue that I can see most people would have to complain in the matchup is that sometimes, these harassment and attacks tends to end the game earlier than what most people would've liked, and I kinda agree with this but again as I wrote above, that was earlier in the year. Nowadays this is not entirely relevant anymore because the meta has slightly changed and settled. This is somewhat the case with recent PvP as well. You know how we tend to see a lot of 1-base and 2-base games in PvP? I actually don't mind those stages BUT the real problem with PvP right now is that those constant aggressive plays actually leads to game ending to early and we don't get to see the great potential later stages of PvP. If you watch the Classic vs Trap games from yesterday, you can see how enjoyable PvP can get (from a viewer perspective at least) but the core issue is that most games tend to end where the third base isn't even mined (if there's even a third base).


[deleted]

I only enjoy watching TvP - if Maru's the one playing. Everyone else playing TvP is like watching Terran get fucked in the ass for 2 hours, then queue GSL end credits.


[deleted]

I'm sorry you lost a game on ladder and it upset you.


skdeimos

100% agreed. Protosses will never agree though so we'll just sit here in tribal warfare until the end of time.


C0gnite

Not necessarily. It’s frustrating only having one perspective, which is why I’m learning Zerg, but until that happens people that only play Protoss need accurate information and not whining to better understand and contribute to balance discussions like this. Personally, I am not against adjusting Protoss at all, but in order to get changes that will last and not just be changed again because they were too much or too little these discussions need to be civil, informed, and unbiased.


jayhxmo

What rank / MMR are you at? I personally really dislike posts like this not because it's about balance whining, but because it contributes no actual insights, suggestions, or even pointing out problems with TvP balance.


[deleted]

Have you noticed that when people bitch about a match up they never disclose their MMR, that's because they're usually very low MMR and they know their whole whine post won't get circlejerked if everyone zones in on how they're bad at the game.


[deleted]

Well, it's because its pointless. You plat? Your opinion isn't worth anything. You diamond? Your opinion isn't worth anything, you're still too shit. You GM? Yea, fuck your opinion as well, balance whiner. You Innovation? Oh, that guy always whines about protoss, lets ignore him. The thing is, the difference between low GM and pro players is bigger than the difference between GM and a plat player so...


[deleted]

The truth is that once you apply rank distribution to reddit, you find that >90% of the people here are under 4.1K MMR, and 4.1K MMR is absolute dogshit level where you hardly start playing starcraft. This is the real reason people don't disclose MMR, they know that they're not even playing the game. They're still not even making workers, they have no fucking clue how to use any spell casters, literally everything. IMO real starcraft is played at around 5.1K+, I don't know if this means that I would give 5K+ players a balance whine pass. Lots of people balance whine unreasonably, take roarbot for example, 5.4K GM at best probably and he whines endlessly about terran, you can play him and lose and he'll stil whine about terran it's fucking insane. But my opinion is, if you can't do a build order properly and you can't max out and you're floating minerals and you're still a dogshit sub M1 player, then your opinion does not matter. I know this is an unpopular opinion.


[deleted]

It isn't, if anything, it's too popular. Even say, beastyqt doesn't get a balance complaint pass even though he's legit top 25 random with top 10 P and T. Meanwhile some random protoss that's ranked 100 lower, or probably not even GM, is given higher credibility on this subreddit due to how he probably subscribes to the church of perfect SC2 balance.


EzioAs

Inno doesn't always whine about Protoss, he always whines about Zerg.


[deleted]

GSL pre-game interview, he literally said Terran has only one build they can use against Protoss, and other pro players use different builds, but they lose anyways.


[deleted]

Ya, but the rest of the last 5 years he has whined about Zerg. Even when his GSL winrate was like 75% plus vs Zerg. I like his play, but he whines so much it's funny.


gnugnu_

TvP brought the best games of WCS Spring, and there's more unit composition variety than ever before. I've always thought TvP was kind of a bad matchup regardless of balance, but I think recently it's shown more promise than ever before. If they just tweak the balance a little bit, this could actually be one of the healthiest, fun matchups in the game, which has honestly rarely been the case.


mywifeforhired

Im ok with storm as terran but they should certainly do something about zealots and warp prism pick up range and revert back widowmines cloak


[deleted]

TL:DR Protoss is broken af 5,9k eu Terran here. TvP really ist just awfully broken. Toss has endless options: from cannon rushing into tempest (which can be really really strong) to all kind of 2 base allins and openings to just standard macro play. Terran is forced into one build order, everything else is just a gamble. Mech isn’t viable either. It just works because pros don’t have that much practice against it and often get caught by surprise. Ever seen 25 siege tanks get crushed by amoving zealots? I do, every game. Protoss players are so biased that they will never say something is wrong with the matchup. But when even nearly all pro gamers say that protoss is broken, something should be up to it, no?


Taldan

> from cannon rushing into tempest (which can be really really strong) If you consider cannon rush viable against Terran, of course you would say Protoss has endless options. Basically anything is viable by comparison. The only reason Terrans lose to cannons at that level is because they have very little practice against it, and don't respond correctly (kind of like how you described mech in TvP......) I've seen some of your games vs. Grimreaper. His PvT winrate is by far his lowest matchup. In the games I saw, you lost because of poor strategic choices, not imbalance. If you made better strategic decisions, I would bet you would have a 90+% winrate against cannons > Protoss players are so biased that they will never say something is wrong with the match up It's pretty obvious that you have a bias as well. I'm not saying the match up is or isn't broken. Just that you very clearly have a strong bias and an inability to objectively look at the match up.


ZephyrBluu

What change or type of change would make the matchup balanced/fixed in your eyes?


[deleted]

I feel like the main problem is the strength of the warp prism & chrono. The protoss eco gets so good so fast and you can’t really do shit about it. The warp prism is just too efficient for its cost. Range pickup and the ability to warp in a whole army in a split second (negating defenders advantage completely) is just too strong.


ZephyrBluu

So do you have any ideas for possible nerfs/changes to Protoss to reduce the effectiveness of Warp Prisms and Chrono? A lot of people are saying they should nerf pick-up range, but that doesn't change warp-ins.


[deleted]

Well I’m ok with the warp in potential to be honest. I think they should nerf the pickup range on the warp prism. What also is really frustrating is the fact that you can recall so often/so easily. You make a Giant move as Terran, they just recall. There’s a reason why Terrains can’t play drop heavy anymore. Protoss doesn’t even need to position themselves well these days. Because of the endless tools that they have to defend (warpin/cannons/batteries/recall) even though their army is even faster then unstimmed bio.....


ZephyrBluu

What would you think about nerfing recall to something like 3min then? I feel like Protoss does kind of need recall, but I was quite surprised when someone told me how short the cooldown is (I can't remember off the top of my head).


[deleted]

I don’t really see a reason why protoss needs recall(in pvt) Army is faster then Terrans, instant warpin to defend drops, cannon shield battery Templar hold off whole drops by themselves. Terrans habe to build turret rings, so why don’t protoss have to build something like that.... But if you nerf recall I would rather nerf the cost, not time. Protoss doesn’t use recall every 85s anyway. So better make it something like 100 energy at least instead of 50 energy like right now. Then Protoss has to decide if he wants to save energy for recall or chrono. This would als kinda start fixing chronoboost issues.


Mangomosh

Every protoss matchup is really bad