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tinybootes

Honestly I think one of the problems a lot of DPS face when discussing improvement is the struggle of unlearning how comfortably they already play their class. If they have been playing that class for a while and are used to the way their skills line up or the order in which they weave, and to improve they would need to learn a different order that feels foreign/uncomfortable, then yeah the suggestion to improve is basically asking them to get uncomfortable.. which not a lot of ffxiv people like doing (talking about players that stand as far away from aoes as possible). If you're able to get your static DPS comfortable with the idea of change maybe that would help?


Micromadsen

This was my biggest problem going into raiding. I've never done raiding before, just a casual player. Not that I didn't understand the differences or how to use a better rotation. I just had no interest. Suddenly I found myself in a static for the first time and had to learn how to optimize. Took me a solid week of daily practice to get the opener down, and unlearn various casual habbits. It was rough lol. But it's a super fun static, so I'll be damned if I don't perform at least decent for these guys. And that's absolutely part of it. If you don't have the personal drive to improve, being tight with a static group can make you want to improve instead. It's a lot more comfortable to share notes and take criticism with people you know, than random PF monkeys.


Jay_RPGee

There is also an element of FFXIV's fundamental design for group content that plays a major factor here. Having optimal DPS tied to raid buff windows means that a lot of classes have different optimal rotations for when they're playing solo and when they're playing in group content. Since you spend a huge amount of time playing the game solo before you even think about doing Savage content, you've really drilled in that solo optimal rotation and it feels really weird to do things (in Savage & above) that you know would be a DPS loss if you were solo. On top of that, for a class like Samurai for example, it just straight up feels worse doing filler GCDs and pooling kenki for shintens during buff windows than it does doing a non-filler rotation and weaving shintens whenever they're available like you would do playing solo. As a veteran WoW player, it took me quite a long time to wrap my mind around my optimal rotation being dependant on other players.


iammoney45

Yet another instance with the 2m meta actually making the game harder instead of easier like SE intended.


RayrrTrick88

It's not specifically the 2m meta but having buff windows at all. Which would only be eliminated by removing all group buffs. Which leaves us where, exactly?


iammoney45

Pre-EW all buffs had different timers, usually 60s, 90s, or 120s. The optimal play then was to use them on CD for the most part, and then realign them at 6m for the 2nd pot. This effectively gave us mini bursts every 30s or so and didn't require you to hold any burst for a specific window (except 2nd pot). What this meant in practice is that you didn't have to worry about if your job has a natural drift as much (like RPR does now), since you would still be hitting buff windows regardless for the most part. This had the extra bonus of making jobs like PLD who are low burst and high sustain also viable, since they could capitalize on all the mini bursts with their naturally strong GCDs. There were minor optimizations to hit certain skills in some buffs, but in general you never had to hold anything for more than 30s and most jobs could just do their natural rotation hitting things on CD and get good enough parses.


HatTheTurtle

Your comment does a good job of discussing how the 2-minute meta disproportionately benefits burst-heavy jobs over sustained damage jobs, but I disagree with the idea that the 2-minute meta is more difficult than the old varied burst timings. Very few classes in Endwalker need to put any additional effort to ensure they are bursting inside the 2-minute window, and most of the jobs that can save gauge for burst were doing it already in previous expansions too (SAM pooling kenki, DRK pooling mana, etc.). If RPR existed in the old meta, it would still want to hold bursts for the specific buff windows too because even outside of pots, not all buff windows are equal. One aspect of the game I think you could argue is more difficult is flubbing up your 120s windows is more punishing now that all raid buffs align at 120s and there are no other raid buff windows to help smooth out the curve.


iammoney45

Top parse has always require some amount of min maxing what is which buffs, yes. My point was that if you aren't going for top parse but just a good enough parse for a clear you could do that much easier in the old meta. Like you say, if you fuck up your 2m burst now, it's very punishing. In the past if you messed up one burst it was bad, but it wasn't the end of the world. For example, I have been a PLD main for ages, and in the old meta if I didn't feel like breaking out the spreadsheet and mapping all my GCD and phase timings for a fight, I could just do a normal full FoF opener and still get a purple or orange, even if -18 opener with a fucky GCD priority for downtime was optimal. In current meta if I don't do the optimal opener it's very hard to get an orange. Even with optimal openers and GCD plans, if I don't crit confetier in burst windows I probably won't get an orange aDPS.


CuriouserThing

>for a class like Samurai for example, it just straightup feels worse doing filler GCDs You're still beholden to Higanbana. Whether you're looping or adhoc, that anchor GCD informs a lot of your rotation. If this hypothetical solo player is refreshing Bana on the correct GCDs, then their mastery of the job shouldn't change that much in group content.


Jay_RPGee

It's pretty unlikely you'd encounter the need for filler GCDs in solo content, with the current SAM rotation there is no filler until the second higabana refresh (around the 3 minute mark) plus the act of clipping a higabana by 1 or 2 seconds in and of itself is rather minor, the issue is clipping higabana (or having it fall off for 1-2 seconds) while also misaligning your rotation with group burst windows further and further each time you do it. In hindsight, SAM maybe wasn't the best example to use (though, honestly, not constantly weaving shintens does make the rotation feel so slow and boring outside burst windows) but even when your rotation might not need much changing, habits that have a somewhat negligible affect in solo content can equate to thousands of DPS in a Savage encounter because of the way FFXIV is built around rigid buff and burst windows.


Woogush

Team buffs for dps windows is also a thing in wow tho? Bloodlust, etc...


ScavAteMyArms

Ehhh, no. Lust is most often used right off the rip because it can 100% everyone has all their CD’s of all types up for it. Or in some cases (such as Sludgefist/Dreadlords) the first moment where everyone should be pushing their CD’s for the first time because they both have a massive damage boost really early in. In any other case it’s usually used for the final phase, but those usually don’t have harsh DPS burn phases before that final rush down, so it isn’t a big deal to hold for it, and being the final phase you aren’t getting another set of CD’s anyway. You really don’t do much holding in WoW unless the boss itself mandates it though a vulnerability phase or an Add phase (which feels good to hold for anyway because that’s when the beeg numbers pop up). Also, this is the *only* buff that matters where you would hold CD’s for that’s player driven. Power Infusion, the only other big one, is held by the Priest until you have your burst ready and if you don’t they will pass it to someone who does if you aren’t getting it for a decent period of time.


Jay_RPGee

ScavAteMyArms did a good job explaining in more detail already but the short answer is no. Team buffs in WoW (at least when I was playing, from vanilla to cataclysm) were either always active or they are strictly once per fight due to lengthy cooldowns or forced debuffs. Bloodlust had a long a CD (10 or 15 minutes, can't quite remember) that originally it wasn't even once per fight or once per attempt, it was a "we'll have lust this pull" thing. Later the CD was reduced but it put a debuff on players for 10 minutes preventing them from getting the effects of Bloodlust again.


saintjiesus

Thank you for this response! And it’s a very good point - muscle memory is insanely hard to break. And if that muscle memory involves significant mistakes, then it’s quite a journey toward improvement. And in most cases it’s not even the player’s fault for learning this muscle memory considering the game does a very poor job of giving you feedback on your performance. The game does nothing to explain GCDs/oGCDs, weaving, buff windows, etc. The only tool that helps is ACT, and even that isn’t very helpful when you’re newer to high end content and aren’t sure what you should expect from your performance.


tinybootes

Yes definitely. It goes further; sometimes rotation change can be difficult because people are just lazy about optimizing their hotkeys and whatnot or even don't realize that the way they set their hotbars up makes it more convenient to run their rotation suboptimally (which snowballs when there are breaks and downtime in fights). Because even with all the knowledge that the balance has to offer, some players just end up not being able to adjust or account for stuff. Even Arthars, world class player, admitted that he struggled to line up buffs if there is downtime with the change to ninja's buff. Muscle memory is no joke. In the end though I guess my point is that it'll come down to the attitude of the DPS in question. The difficulty with starting the conversation I've found is finding out where they stand and then figuring out how to approach the idea of stepping out of their comfort zone + how much they are willing to improve. Best of luck!


saintjiesus

Thanks!! I’m not personally struggling with this problem at the moment. It’s just something I randomly thought of/realized through past experiences and had the desire to post it haha


Van-Mckan

FF14 players just cannot adjust full stop. I play ranged and melee and have done the current savage tier and will happily play M1/2 and R1/2. It’s a simple case of just remembering what waymark to stand under. Did P6S in PF last week, loaded into it and I was ranged. One guy called M1 and the other said he could only play M1 but the first dude said he could also only play M1 so the second dude straight up left the group and we had to spend another 20 minutes in PF. It’s not hard to adjust but players literally cant


Aleford

In P6S? I can half get P7S because there's a lot of tighter positioning there. Or P8S for sure due to snake flexing. But it's basically just your corner and the healer you stack with occasionally in P6S. Anyone incapable of that switch wouldn't inspire me with confidence that they could actually do something like cachexia.


JellyAddiction

One of the core issues and differences between DPS and T/H is that the game offers IMMEDIATE feedback with tank/healer failures. With DPS, you have to go through **10 minutes of a savage fight** before you reach a screen at the end that says "your **group** did not do enough damage". **Human brains are very bad at attributing past actions to present consequences.** Seeing enrage is just shitty feedback. And so people are more used to and are okay with healing/tanking criticism because the game communicates this criticism to them. If they couldn't accept having to deal with that criticism then they wouldn't play the game outright, so anyone who reaches savage likely understands and accepts on some level that **criticism is part of the game they play.** But the game has no proper feedback when it comes to dps. Not only can enrage fail to communicate to the player that there is a problem, but on the flipside the game shuffles players through content as they press whatever buttons they want and then hits them with a win screen that communicates and affirms them that they are performing adequately. **Criticism is not part of the game they play.** tl;dr: it's a natural result of the core game design not providing proper feedback to dps actions.


cpdonny

So what we need are more mid-fight dos checks. Party finder p3s confirmed that many "hot shit dps" weren't able to kill birds.


saintjiesus

Wait. Fuck. Yeah. You’re right. And the answer is obvious as hell. Thank you. EDIT: Re-read the post and just wanted to reiterate more how much this clicked in my brain. Both from a psychological perspective and a game design perspective.


Asahoshi

Static members usually aren't. I find most are receptive to constructive criticism and actually want feedback. PF is a different story. I don't know you and probably won't see you again. Your opinion about my play isn't worth much.


saintjiesus

I’ve found this issue actually mainly in a static environment! Primarily midcore groups. To me, discussing/critiquing DPS is totally objective and non judgemental. If somebody isn’t performing well, I’m eager to help and actually enjoy finding ways to help others improve their damage. However, I feel there’s a lot more pride involved in damage output. People don’t brag about their healing optimization or perfect mitigation maps. They pride themselves on their big numbers


luminosg

As a tank, emnity management isn't a skillset I have to development, its a binary pass fail mechanic that only tanks get. I do however, take a lot of pride in repositioning bosses that have to be dragged off center for mechanics, doing that correctly and efficiently, without costing myself uptime and making the boss predictable for everyone else is a bit of skillful play that feels good when I get it just right.


Narlaw

That's something I a melee tend to take for granted, until I get tanks who are absolutely inconsistent with boss' oritentations. Feels horrible to have a big positionnal lined up, only for the boss to randomly rotate 5 degrees.


Aleford

I lowkey think this is one of the biggest issues that doesn't get discussed enough. I did a P5S run where the tank dragged Carby out of range of my DRG for all Ruby 5 and the puddles after, then left us with an extremely awkward corner for tail/claw. Awful tanking.


Alkar188

While I wasn't there and if it left you an awkward corner for tail/claw that does sound like pretty bad positioning, often times the boss moving in Ruby 5 is not the fault of the tank. Most PF are obsessed with doing Tank stays (next to the puddle) which will cause the boss to move towards the main tank. The only way to avoid that is for the tank to try to get closer to the center, but you can only do that if the healer/melee leave enough space for it... which they almost never do, so as a tank you'd be murdering them if you try to prevent the boss moving.


saintjiesus

I love tanks like you. I’m starting to tank a bit; and so far the most satisfying thing is perfect boss positioning to the center after a mechanic


Creative_alternative

Most dps checks are not met because of grey parsing healers, in my experience. This game is balanced around all classes performing at a certain level when it comes to dps. 4 dps doing perfect roations with 99 parses can not carry two tanks and two healers parsing 0. Jist something to keep in mind, improving damage applies to the entire raid group. Tanks and healers have additional raid responsibility in exchange for easier dps rotations.


Philderbeast

also lack of DPS is often caused by the party (often the DPS players) not doing mechanics properly causing the tanks/healers to spend more actions healing/mitigating damage then they really should be. so often rather then worry about rotations the solution is sorting out people not dealing with mechanics.


Creative_alternative

Yes, but all 8 players are required to do mechanics in addition to their rotation. That's not a dps issue, thats a raid issue or an individual player issue.


Philderbeast

it becomes a DPS issue, its the most common cause of missed DPS checks, far more of an issue then one player not being optimal in there rotation.


Creative_alternative

Your putting the onus of any player making mechanical mistakes on the dps. If my 4 dps make no mechanical mistakes and mostly do their rotation correctly but the tanks and healers screw up their rotations or die to avoidable mechanics, that is the fault of those tanks and healers. This is a player issue regardless of role. The most common cause of missed dps checks is the fact that most players are bad at the game and can't do mechanics correctly while also performing their rotation, regardless of their role.


Philderbeast

its not a dps player issue, its a party DPS issue. your not going to meet DPS checks unless the whole party is working on getting DPS uptime, that includes everyone in the party doing mechanics correctly, particularly DPS as they have the least margin for error in mechanics, tanks can use spare mitigation to help when they make a mistake, and healers usually have ways to move there heals around to deal with it to some extent, but the DPS are relying on other people to cover there mistakes, generally costing more resources then the tanks/healers to do so.


Everspace

The game is designed around minimal healer and tank dps. This is the hard numbers. This is also why healers do not have a "rotation" or anything interesting going on in their kit DPS wise... or if they do, it's a bunch of potency on a single button (chain, afflatus, phlegma). Tanks get "every 60 seconds press your ungabunga button and do 60% of your dps". It just so happens the tanks and healers doing anything beyond that low low bar covers for the 1-2 not-so-great DPS that can do mechanic properly (a godsend) but not dps super good at the same time. This tends to exist pretty much in every single raid I have ever been in. Most dps checks are not met because a DPS is bad at doing the fundimentals of dps (usually uptime/gcds), or died from a mistake. Tank and healer dps cover these mistakes, but that is wiggleroom given by again, exceptional tank/healer rather than it being the balance... which assumes you just do the fight correctly 5head.


Rydil00

To me neither of those matter simply because enmity management is just not a thing that exists (like you said its either pass or fail), and boss positioning also doesn't exist. In this tier the only time it's relevant is if you get a specific gem pattern on ruby glow 1 (pattern where you are not all firced into the corner), because then you can spin the boss to the side and allow your melee to hit positionals.... but they have a charge of true North there so it's irrelevant. To me a good skilful tank is min-maxing your mit plan. A skilful healer has a good heal plan to minimise gcd heals, a skilful tank has a good mit plan to minimise healing from their healer. For me it's a huge deal. I recently joined a static that was progging p7s, and the tank mit was making me cry with what I was seeing. I like looking at the timeline to see exactly what I can cover with mit, I like counting the boss autos to see when I can throw a tbn on myself that will pop, etc. That's why I actually quite like the trash in criterion savage despite it being so ungodly difficult lol. If you can't mit it properly you just get 1 tapped.


Bilbo0fBagEnd

To be perfectly honest, if this is a problem in your static, you need to find a new one. This is just a symptom of a deeper problem; if your static isn't working together to improve and clear, it will fall apart eventually, and probably catastrophically.


saintjiesus

for like the 5th time now, I’m not in a static! Hahaha. I’m taking it pretty easy this tier :)


Bilbo0fBagEnd

> I’ve found this issue actually mainly in a static environment! Are we understanding "static" to mean the same thing?


saintjiesus

In a static environment in general. Not a current one! I’ve been a few statics since Eden’s Verse, and currently sub for a couple


Bilbo0fBagEnd

Oh, ok. In that case, just think of this as a red flag; when you do feel like joining a static again, this kind of resistance to improvement ought to be an instant deal-breaker. It has not been my experience in my statics, and it doesn't look like a common static experience for others either.


saintjiesus

Then boy do I have some rough luck. I had one very good static that loved to help each other out to improve. Because we all loved finding ways to improve personally, and we loved to support and encourage each other to achieve those improvements. ​ God, I miss that group. :(


Bilbo0fBagEnd

Yeah, those are the good ones. It's easy enough to find an improvement-oriented static, but it never quite feels the same as that one group you used to run with, you know?


Scott_Liberation

I'm pretty proud of myself for making good use of mitigations, especially when off-tanking since I've seen many off-tanks who don't bother. But I don't brag about it because I don't expect anyone to care. Then again, I can't remember the last time I bragged about anything because, again, I don't expect anyone to care.


SyntheticSolitude

Any OT who helps mitigate nasty raidwides (or any) is a godsend and you are appreciated. (Also DPS who help with mits.) Nothing sucks more than having to spend MORE effort as a healer bc someone couldn't pop an oGCD mit to make the damage less. Especially if there's multiple raidwides coming or extra damage to several after that RW? Anything that helps make all that less headache inducing is loved, and appreciated, bc healers can TELL. I've heard it from people who do it that those who help mitigate are appreciated.


Scott_Liberation

Oh yeah, I wasn't even thinking about mitigating raid wides, though it is fun when a whole raid party (or at least most of one) get behind my glowy wings, or I manage to shield a big hit with Divine Veil. I was thinking more about when I use mitigations on the tank, though. Which can be tricky as a paladin, since it's dependent on job gauge. I remember with my last static, there were certain busters I always mitigated my main tank for, but then once or twice I did something different and didn't have enough gauge when it came up, and of course that was the time the hit was bigger than usual, or someone else missed some mitigation, and the tank dies, and the tank and healers are all "I don't know what happened," and I'm just saying nothing because I know they've never noticed I use Intervention anyway. 😁


Lazybomber

This feels nice to hear. I'm off tank and during raids I try my best to make sure my mitgations for those extra spicy raid wides are ready. While learning the fight I pay attention to which raidwides that give the healers a harder time due to mechanics before/after it happens so I can help. Can never tell if they notice it or they just assume its them being good healers since its one of those things that goes unmentioned most of the time.


HassouTobi69

From a healer PoV, I can assure you that most of us do notice that. It's hard not to: unmitigated raidwides require more healing afterwards.


Asdrubael1131

I can say with confidence that “dps helping with mitigation and healing when possible” is NOT appreciated on average. At one point In my old mini static crew (me as rpr, a sge, and a war.) the existence of arcane crest wasn’t even registered as a thing (50 potency HoT. I know a pebble in the ocean of savage hell.) and even when I would ask “hey when should I pop feint I was NEVER given a solid answer beyond “oh just use it in CD”. So no. Mits and healing has always been the gatekeeping for a dps job to be in small groups. Which is why went back to full weeaboo and became a sam once more.


caniszephyr

I've literally made mitigation part of my rotation, it's muscle memory at this point. If i'm not in my burst window i'm popping mitigation whenever i get the chance, something is always on cooldown. Been playing MCH lately though and the difference is night and day, i'm having to train myself out of popping tactician everytime its up lol.


saintjiesus

When I snapshot a heal perfectly with a raidwide I brag out loud even if I’m the only persons who cares… 😂


Boolean_Null

As a tank I'm always impressed/appreciative of a well timed heal that my health bar doesn't move


BestFriend_Sword

If that is happening in your static, then you need to find a better one.


ParamountHat

It’s funny. My static experience is that DPS are usually receptive to receiving advice as long as it’s actually helpful. Particularly resources for improvement they can read over and try to implement on their own. Personally, I don’t think it’s helpful or well received if you just say something like “your damage is bad because you have uptime issues/dropped dots.” I feel like most players at the savage level know if they’re clipping/dropping GCDs, overweaving, dropping dots, drifting buffs, or missing positionals. I don’t need to tell my RPR that he greyed because he fucked up his enshroud; he already knows. I know he knows because I hear him say “No! My communio!” Or “Shit; I forgot to Soul sow!” In VC. And pointing it out to him when we check the parse would just be rubbing it in. But! Sending links to a guide on how to pull off triple enshroud or timelines for melee uptime optimization on the fight, and he’s happy to look over it. Healers, on the other hand, don’t wanna ever be told shit ever. They don’t wanna be given a healing timeline or a healer POV video. And how dare you suggest that panhaima would be more effective on a different mechanic. I think healers in savage tend to either become really obstinate and stop receiving advice or they become so discouraged that they stop healing.


saintjiesus

I agree that telling people blanket statements like "you're gcd uptime is bad" or things of the like. Before I ever give feedback, I make sure I have very specific information from logs I can pull from to keep the conversation specific and goal oriented. ​ It also helps a ton in making the goal of improvement achievable - if you don't have specifics on where to improve, you can't be expected to get better!


necronomikon

well are you talking about openly discussing in raid or through tells? maybe they just don't want to be call out publicly.


Shugotenshi714

I see a missing basic requirement to clearing a fight, and that's mitigation, a responsibility on every role.


saintjiesus

I NOTICED THIS AND I WAS HOPING IT WOULDNT GET POINTED OUT LMAO


Lintons44

Because people don't like being critiqued. You say "hey this is something you could improve on" They hear "you are bad and should feel bad"


saintjiesus

How do people improve at anything in life without critique? I really wish people didn’t take out their insecurities on others. Also, why indulge in content that requires teamwork and synergy if people want to avoid any and all constructive feedback? Confidence is a 2 sided concept. You’re confident in what you’re good at. And you’re confident in what you need to improve at. If somebody takes the time to give constructive feedback, it means they care and believe you can improve. And want you to enjoy the results of it. (This is of course if it’s not unsolicited. Advice you didn’t ask for is a completely different story)


Lintons44

The people that react this way don't improve. > (This is of course if it’s not unsolicited. Advice you didn’t ask for is a completely different story) Nah there is nothing wrong with unsolicited advice as long as its constructive and isn't rude. You don't always know if you need to improve or not.


Kiloee

Most people don’t. Sounds insane I know, but I see it all the time. Once they’re out of the phase of forced improvement (aka school/uni), a lot of people stagnate. And that is true even (or sometimes especially) on higher management positions, where you would think it necessary to improve. I could bore you with anecdotes, but I will refrain. People as a whole like to comfortable, and improving oneself is anything but.


saintjiesus

I must be weird. Because being stagnate makes my skin crawl.


Kiloee

Welcome to the club.


Bierzgal

Are they? If you are in a static it is completely normal to want to improve for everyone's sake. DPS players are there to do damage. If you die on enrage then there is still room for improvement. It does not mean anyone is mean about it, but numbers don't lie.


saintjiesus

Thank you!! In my eyes, a static is one unit. When I try to discuss DPS with specific members, it gets interpreted as a personal attack. I don’t care how much damage people do as long as we clear. I only address it when clean runs are resulting in enrage deaths (see another reply on how I bring this up - I am very intentionally empathetic and encouraging.)


Bierzgal

Different people have different standards of play. If yours are higher than your group's then it might be time to switch statics. If you were trying to be helpful and someone was still mad about it then that's a pretty big red flag. If you still have future content to reach after where you are now, things will only get worse with such a person.


saintjiesus

Yeah - I’ve had to kick a DPS once because they weren’t performing quite high enough for TEA. (about a month after discussing their damage with them). They’re an excellent player and had no problem clearing savage. And made sure to express to them that clearing savage alone makes you an exceptional player, and just a bit more work would push them to where they needed to be. but it was probably the most dramatic occurrence of this I’ve dealt with. My standards for a static aren’t generally high - my standards are just being able to clear (ideally comfortably clear, rather than skin of your teeth enrage,) but I’ve only ever critiqued DPS when it’s the sole reason we can’t clear.


Inky-Feathers

My previous static had members that got very uncomfortable when dps was discussed due to performance anxiety where we couldn't discuss parses or anything on our clears with certain people present. It makes it difficult to overcome barriers in progs when some people can't handle feedback.


allthenamestaken76

I think it's worth noting that tanking and healing in this game are so basic and easy that it's usually pretty obvious, even to the player themselves, when they are underperforming. DPS is less obvious, with a lot of people playing sub-optimally without even realizing or possibly caring. Without an easily demonstrable metric like "X player died because I didn't do Y", people get a lot more defensive about criticism.


shall_always_be_so

The closest thing to DPS meters that are available in game are SSS. And basically nobody actually uses it. And it doesn't accurately simulate the actual fight where you have to keep your rotation rolling in top of doing mechanics. Basically, the game doesn't do a good job of giving DPS feedback about their personal performance.


saintjiesus

Lol WHM glare spam target dummy. Because raids deal no damage and a healer doesn’t need to heal, apparently!


Philderbeast

in high end content, you want your healer to be spamming glare, rarely if ever should they be using GCD's for heals because you should all be avoiding taking damage to maximise the DPS uptime of the whole party.


Salmelu

While that is true in optimized environment, it won't happen in prog or even in PF reclears. If you don't GCD shield in random PF group, you are dying cause someone forgot to mit. Another point is that glaring a dummy might give healers false feedback "ok I can do good enough". Then they enter the fight, start watching health bars and stop pressing glare, and suddenly, uptime drops to 70% and it's not enough anymore.


saintjiesus

This tier on healer requires (or required, at least) a pretty decent chunk of GCD heals. Primarily regens on tanks. Luckily though Misery is DPS neutral now, so you can freely rapture


saintjiesus

As somebody who’s cleared a few tiers on both healer and DPS, I’d say you’re correct, minus a few details. In my time as WHM during Eden, I had to take criticism on both my healing AND my damage output. But because it’s organized and cooperative group content, I take the critique as a way to improve the team, and not as a personal attack. It is true, DPS is far less obvious. Sometimes it’s a healer or a tank that’s doing very poorly with damage and will be the reason for a wall at enrage. It’s just difficult that, outside of damage, DPS players really do get to chill in the background and just focus on damage and mechanics. I believe all members of a group should welcome (polite) critique, and all members of the same group should expect to be critiqued to some extent. 99% of the time, people in the same group trying to help others with DPS are genuinely just trying to be helpful for the benefit of the group. But too often people feel “singled out,” even though everybody’s contribution is equally important


FB-22

I think generally that may be true but there are definitely some players who think DPS checks are for the 4 DPS players to worry about, I have been in situations before where a healer majorly underperforming in damage combined with a weak job composition was causing problems beating enrages and it was frustrating because the healer could not take criticism or feedback well so the 4 dps players who were already playing pretty well were brainstorming how to squeeze out tiny amounts of extra damage instead of address the major issue


Mattelot

Many people are willing to improve. It’s mostly in the delivery for some people. Unsolicited “help” is unwelcome to some players because a lot of bad advice is given and it’s annoying hearing someone preach about it when they’re clearly just echoing something they think they read right. Also, some people are rude when they offer advice. Nobody wants to listen to some guy berating people and justifying it with “I’m just trying to help!”


[deleted]

This. I was in a castrum one day. And i was in a castrum on a day i was having a very bad sensory overload im autistic and lights and noise can be issues i play with no sound due to this . I main white mage. Our best dps on multiple targets is holy. Holy is bright and can cause issues. But if i turn the settings down the game gets a bit harder for me . I did it before and i was having issues in raids seeing fights on a good day so i dont keep it off all the time. And at this day i didnt turn the settings down before hand as i wanted to get my dailies done fast and relax fishing. When i was in the castrum i was dotting my mob and casting stone as it was what i could handle at the moment with construction all around me making everything 10xworse. I had a dps try to “teach me to play my class correctly” i tried to explain that im having issues with visuals at the moment. I apologized if it was causing issues to them. They wouldn’t let it go. I told them this is how i was going to be dpsing to better my mental health atm frankly i couldn’t even think straight to turn off the settings. The other dps and the tank told me i was ruining their run by not causing as much damage as possible and pulling us behind. Claimed i was griefing their castrum run. By the first boss i was in bad shape and i was shaking from overstimulation from them all attacking me and just after we died due to me getting so bad i just left. One of them messaged me after to tell me they were reporting me for griefing their castrum. Alot of the time stuff is happening for a reason. And alot of time people are rude. In the end my free company which has some people who are also like me autistic after i calmed down ran my dailies with me and let me do what was good for me and got that done


dreamsanity

Isn’t there a setting where you can hide effects?


[deleted]

There is. But on this day i didnt have them hidden because i had logged on and forgot they were on and ran in the dungeon. I try to keep effects turned on for raids as it makes it easier for me. At this point i had construction work in front of my house behind my house and on one side my mind was kinda iffy. When they said that all to me they wouldnt give me the time to turn it off were just belittling my dps and constant chain pulling i was trying to stay caught up and keep them alive and looking in all the settings to turn it off wasnt a option i guess for then they wanted a midmax fast run they didnt want me to change the settings. They wanted me to spam holy and also heal them all the while the settings were on and they were chain pulling. Their report didnt do anything to me obviously and my free company had me report them for griefing.


jivesukka

Just a heads up - you can macro this to make it quick to change settings. >Macro to turn effects off (Will miss a lot of party buffs with this one though): /battleeffect party off /battleeffect other off /echo EFFECTS TURNED OFF >Macro to simplify effects(Only displays ground AoE's like Doton or Salted Earth): /battleeffect party simple /battleeffect other simple /echo EFFECTS SIMPLIFIED >Macro to turn effects back on: /battleeffect party on /battleeffect other on /echo EFFECTS TURNED BACK ON


[deleted]

Thank you so much this will help me out alot. Ive been having to turn it on manually each time and this will make it so much easier. If i had coins id give u a award


Mattelot

I’m so sorry that happened to you.


saintjiesus

This breaks my heart honestly. I’m so sorry you were treated that way. People regardless of mental/physical illness/disorder deserve to play and enjoy the game as much as anybody else. That’s what makes this game so great, also. There are so many ways to find joy in almost every aspect of content. I’m an ultimate raider and I approve your stone spam in Castrum. Your ability to adjust to take care of your mental state, as well as contribute to the group, is impressive in itself.


saintjiesus

What if you’re in an organized group doing content with a dev-designed DPS check? If doing a certain amount of damage is required by design, I’m still not sure how offering help for the betterment of the group is a problem? This is a legitimate question. I struggle a lot understanding social cues/acceptable norms. So I really do my best to understand as many perspectives as I can, because it’s not always second nature for me.


VagueSoul

It’s all in the delivery. You have to assume the other person is competent at what they’re doing and at your same level.


yraco

Even with good delivery though... some people just can't take criticism unfortunately. You can make it as kind, constructive and helpful as possible but many will still take it as a personal attack instead of what it is - a way to do more damage in a video game.


Mattelot

Upvoted. I wanted to add that it’s not uncommon for someone to believe they’re being kind about something. Some people just don’t have good communication skills and often no fault of their own.


saintjiesus

I do my best to this. I will always stand by my belief that all players can do any content in the game, no matter how difficult, if they truly enjoy it/want to do it. I also refuse to give any advice unsolicited; the most I will say "unsolicited" is a blanket statement obversation like "I noticed we've wiped to enrage 3 times on clean runs; does anybody wanna chat about what we can do about that?"


DNC_Sadge

With statics, I believe there are two important factors to help you decide if you want to run and find a new one: Skill and attitude of the members. Skill is a given. This includes that everybody is aligned with expectations in clearing the tier: we’re going to play at xxx pace with xxx skill. We will discuss how to improve dps, mitigs and buff timings in xxx way since I expect that you have this xxx level of knowledge in rotations and mechanics. Attitude is another thing. Will the members be okay with candid advice on how to improve? Will raid leads know how to approach a wall mechanic the party is stuck (eg one member explaining, not a bunch of voices screaming at each other about instructions) Will members be willing to adjust to fit the others’ playstyle? Will they be strict or not about communications during raids? Are members chill when someone committed oopsies? Are they going to seek advice and acknowledge their weaknesses? With PF, ah well. I just stay quiet in PF raids. If they pinpoint my mistakes, then I ask a question on how to improve there. If they become aggro because I asked a question on how to improve or solve a puzzle, then I’m out. :)


Curiously_Alice

Personally, I’d prefer to know if I’m doing something wrong. How else does one learn? I haven’t gone into savages or ultimates since even though I’m not a terrible player, but I have a harder time learning fights quickly and can get pretty flustered if I miss something whether it be in my rotation or a mechanic. I might have to get over it though seeing how my son wants to do all that with me in tow lol.


cattecatte

Because they think they're hot shit and everyone else are the bad players. Some people just refuses to improve no matter how much you sugarcoat your advice.


latteofchai

I've been raiding since 3.0. I did most of the ShB savages up until E12S because I had to quit during the last part of the tier due to some health issues that I didn't think people would work with me on since I was primarily doing random groups with people I knew. Not a real static just I guess "raid groups". In my most recent static, I did join one for P4-8S. We mostly are all self accountable for our roles in the fight. I don't know if its an age thing but we are all mature enough to handle our roles and be self accountable for improvement. I would say on average its a mixed bag of reasons but the conversations are difficult because of a couple of different scenarios: I've had friends in other statics and raid groups though where people sometimes think they're being helpful but their feedback is hostile, unhelpful or just obtuse or poorly worded. I think sometimes people lack the soft skills to be able to supply feedback in a constructive way that helps the player. There are also cases of people just being defensive. I would say its a mixed bag of these things on the why addressing the DPS question is difficult when its not met. There is also the problem of people just not really understanding the nuance for why the fight is not going as planned and jumping to conclusions and finger pointing at either the DPS or healer or tanks. There is sometimes nuance involved in why these things happen and people aren't aware of enough of what is going on to really understand it. If I didn't find my current static I probably just wouldn't have bothered with raiding though this tier. I was referred by a friend and kind of just face planted into it and its pretty much the perfect environment for me. Everyone has constructive conversations, there is no bad feedback, we aren't overly punitive and we're all having fun and we clear. I think their approach works and we're clearing content without issue. Everyone is different though and I hope everyone finds a group dynamic that works for them.


comicfan285

Because you can be subpar as a healer or a tank and the party can still adapt. Everybody is involved in damage. So there's really no wiggle room unless someone else is doing 120% of their job. ...but that's not really that fair to the overachiever. Maybe it's not really about being addressed, but how and why. Not everybody that wants to do expert+ content has the best gear in game to do the best output in game. Even if someone is dodging all the attacks and hitting all the timing on their actions; if they don't have the highest weapon ilv, they can't do as much damage as someone that has it all. The game already considers this and makes a minimum item level for some content, but party members might not be willing to accept that. Also, not every difficulty is just a harder-hitting mechanically identical version of the difficulty before. So unless one watches a guide (booo) or is given a bit of slack as a new-to-content player, there's going to be mistakes and a learning curve. Being ..."yelled"... at in the chat for causing a wipe is stressful. As a whole, this game is very social and welcoming. But the extreme+ community is chaulk-full of gatekeeping. That's my opinion, and you're free to disagree.


saintjiesus

TLDR: Thank you for outsider response. I value diverse perspectives. You are partially correct in your assumption, but likely don’t represent the majority, which is actually the polar opposite. There’s rare an in between in personalities. First off, thank you for your in depth perspective. I wanted to hear more from outside the raiding community. Especially because I feel some animosity growing between the raiding community, and the more casual/relaxing community. Both of which, imo, are equally wonderful. It makes me sad. I love this game, it’s people, and most importantly, its diversity. The HC Community is tough, because it’s rather divided in itself. There are a few dedicated discord servers for Ultimate raiding, and their behavior is a pretty good indicator of how they act! I can confidently say that 75% ish tend to expect very highly of themselves (sometimes to a fault..) but would never expect the same from a teammate. The other 25% are actually the exact opposite. (These % are just anecdotal and estimated, idk actual data) For example, if people make a mistake on a mechanic I find more simple, and I’m okay with that! Truly doesn’t bother me because we’re human at the end of the day, and the fights are designed for many mistakes to be made. A lot of more HC players are like this, because patience/support/teamwork/morale are all required to clear Ultimate (cleared TEA personally) The other 25% definitely are elitist and can’t understand why people struggle more than others. These people are self centered and truly do play for bragging rights. Those are the people I actively avoid.


mhireina

Generally when people call it out (in memorable situations. Not all) the person calling it out sounds like a dick while doing it. And it happens with tanks and healers as well. So the offending party goes from being OK to being defensive. I know a lot of people don't think the way they type is an issue because emotions shouldn't translate over the internet and "its just a game". But the internet should be treated like a face to face interaction with anonymity. Tone translates differently through text and can be more easily seen as hostile. I know folks out here want to help, but you need to watch your tone first if you want a positive reaction. All the good reactions I've seen came between two people typing respectfully to one another and not a vet making a sarcastic comment that they thought was funny or a vet being bitter in chat. In addition, the most recent new population of players is coming in from action-based RPG. IE: games where button smashing and having only 2-4 active skills is common. Less brain power required to be good. FFXIV is a skill based rpg meaning your every action in combat is performed by hitting a button. We have no auto attacks. Our skills aren't automatically AoE when more than one mob is in range. We have aoe skills for that. They think hitting 4 buttons is acceptable here when it's not. And when you tell them otherwise, their ignorance makes them think you're wrong. In addition to that, the most casual of casual players don't want to be better. I've met players who don't even wanna do content. Their end game is RP or crafting or staring at the pretty graphics. They are the most annoying people I've ever had to deal with because they bitch moan and whine about how everything is too hard. Those players are a lost cause. I don't give them the time of day. They will not change.


Opicepus

The same reason people are sensitive when you tell them they smell bad. Alot of times they aren’t aware of the problem and get embarrassed when they realize its bad enough that someone would mention it


Raiko556

A lot of people don't know how to give constructive criticism and it comes across poorly. Like for me personally, I am absolutely for constructive criticism but in my experiences, both to myself and others I have seen way more unconstructive criticism than constructive ones (I used to play WoW so this might be a reason too) to the point where I have a weird social anxiety that prevents me from doing high end content. People are generally worried about being insulted, making others mad or just making things unfun for others and also in my experience, giving criticism is when it's usually approaching that breaking point for everyone in the group.


Zeyd2112

Why is this a difficult conversation? A healer makes a mistake and someone dies… it’s a mistake. People make mistakes and that’s fine, so generally you say “whoops sorry” and go again. Same deal with tanks. Now…. When a dps has low dps over the course of an entire fight… if we assume they did not die, then that’s not a mistake, it’s just being bad. People generally don’t like being bad, and so will be much more defensive. This isn’t just dps either, tanks and healers are expected to pull decent dps numbers as well. You don’t get a pass because you have to cast a cure or provoke once in a while. At the end of the day you can’t teach someone who doesn’t want to be taught. Try once, then kick and move on.


Kabooa

Handshake protocol. You can't help people who don't want you to help them.


saintjiesus

Another obvious yet very accurate answer that’s helpful to hear. Why don’t I think of these things?! Haha


EmberSolaris

I think it depends how it’s being addressed. If I didn’t do super great dps and you’re a dick in asking me why I’m not doing as good as I should be, then I’m gonna ignore you. If you’re polite, then I’ll at least hear you out.


Akira101

Some people won't listen regardless how polite or nice you try to be. I had a friend in a static I lead that had 65% uptime as DRG, which is unacceptable for savage. I gave him tips, not weave a jump into another ogcd, keep the GCD rolling, and the such. I remember this clear as day: Me: "Let's try aiming for 70% uptime, then once we hit that, let's get 75%, and we can keep improving from there" DRG: "I'm trying the best I can" Me: "I know you can improve, just give it a shot" DRG: "Well if I can't do any better I can't do any better." Me: "if you can't that's okay, I'm just trying to set goal that I know you can do it" They refused to listen, I could be as supportive and positive as possible, they refused to take any advice, pointers, or critisism. I learned that day some people don't want to be helped, ans take any advice as a personal attack.


DoctorKumquat

65% uptime? Were they just running around with 0 attacks whenever a mechanic required them to reposition, or mouse- clicking all their powers very slowly with no distinction between GCD / oGCD abilities, or what? Being bad is one thing, but being actively stubborn and refusing to listen to honest suggestions is really frustrating.


Akira101

This was specifically E1S, I went through their analysis at the time, it was a mix of clipping due to weaving (jump with another oGCD, triple quad weaving), playing it super safe like Delta Attack, missing 2-3 GCD's trying to do the mech or move ahead of time so they don't die like during Delta Attack, and just, no always casting a GCD. There would be GCD lengths of gaps between GCDs for no reason, sometimes it was as bad as, 1, pause, 2, pause, 3 in their combo without any oGCD's. They also have roughly 70% oGCD uptime, and didn't align raid buffs. Like, there was a lot, but even just focusing on GCD uptime, they actively argued with me that they can't do better and got actively mad when I tried to help and pointed out specific times they could improve.


akrob115

>not weave a jump into another ogcd ? How recent was this? High Jump, Dragonfire Dive and Spineshatter Dive are all fast enough now that they should be able to be double weaved, just not with each other. I mean, Stardiver no shot, but the others should be fine.


Akira101

Oh this was back in Shb, during Eden's Gate, the first raid tier of the expac. But yeah, they are all good now, this is years back.


saintjiesus

So, context, I’m a teacher in real life. So I’m trained to give feedback in an empathetic manner. Also, it’s a video game, so I refuse to actually shame somebody for their performance. The issue I run into, is regardless of how I try to start the discussion, it gets tense very fast. Of course this isn’t ALWAYS, there are plenty of players open and excited to improve. However, it’s happened enough to notice a them that no matter how encouraging, empathetic, or soft spoken I try to approach the subject, it gets very tense very fast.


shaigil

Yeah it really just depends on the experience and maturity of the people. I met some nice people in PF this tier and we grouped together for a couple weeks for p8s. We did have to have the “we need the WHM and DNC to do more damage” conversation, and it was fine, because we were all comparing our partial logs to clears so it was obvious what needed to happen. We certainly weren’t dicks about it though. Just objectively “you’re 1k below where you should be” “yeah I’m workin on it”


Zaku99

I don't even do savage anymore. Cleared Eden last expansion, got BiS then started working to improve my DPS as a tank since our group DPS was a bit lacking and I was only purple/blue. I can't ask anyone else to improve since I'm Canadian and that would be rude, but I wanted to be ready for EW's raids. Anyway, one night during one of our reclears, I was asked to "stop trying so hard; we cleared already" and I just snapped. I am breaking my back, trying to widen this clear, to improve my (our) DPS, which is languishing, and you don't even CARE? They booted me out and nothing felt right in PF. Got through half of P3S before I just threw in the towel. Raiding in PF sucks. Theres just no consistency and people expect far too much out of other people, even when the sprout/newbie icon is on.


saintjiesus

ONLY purple and blue? So they’re mad that you’re statistically performing better than half of those that cleared the fight? I hate this logic.


-iiTzSeb-

Bit of a horror story leadup to what I'm gonna say so bear with me. So here we go with the story of my first Ultimate static. A long time ago I joined my first Ultimate static for UWU. Our "leader" (using this term very fucking loosely with this person) basically grabbed a mix of EU/NA players from across the Primal DC and asked every one of us what time we were free to raid. We were all told "wow that's perfect, that's the time I was thinking." As you may be able to surmise, we did not all have the same raid times in mind. However we all decided to stick with the time our "leader" eventually set just because many of us didn't want to deal with the hassle of having to repost our LFG messages and go through the process all over again. So, day 1 comes around and me and one of the NA players are slightly late because we're basically raiding on EU time and we're barely just waking up around the time the "leader" wanted to start raid. She gets pissy at us for being late by like 10m, scolds us, then we start prog. First day of prog (this was during SHB) we're learning Garuda mechs from some of our vets in the group who are there to teach the fight. We're all doing pretty well, but the plumes part feels like a HARD struggle at times. I look at the (totally legal excel spreadsheet team's info) and notice that our DNC is putting out 1.3k DPS. This is not Endwalker numbers, this is SHB. Where that is about a FOURTH of what DNC SHOULD be putting out. So our vet DRK and SCH at the time also noticed this and at the end of our 1st day of prog they, very calmly and without pointing any players out, said that some people needed to work on their rotations so we can stop dying to plumes for day 2. Our "leader" takes this personally without her name even being called out and throws a tiny tantrum in the discord chat because, and I quote "why are people looking at my dps numbers" (DNC main in an Ultimate prog static btw). Later that night our "leader" DMs each person individually with screencaps of them with a UCOB weapon, I can only assume seeking praise for their (totally legitimate) "clear". However, when recruiting us she DID mention to us that she had never done Ultimate before and that this UWU static would be her first Ultimate with the help of some helpful vets. As you can guess, some credit card swiping prog most definitely occurred here. The day after she DMs everyone this, she misses the UWU prog ENTIRELY, even after scolding others for being late by 10 minutes the prior session. We all get irritated at this and decide to pug a fill instead and we make REALLY good prog without her. Later after we finish our UWU prog the "leader" messages the discord chat saying they're dropping the static THEY started. We all collectively "???" and she leaves the chat. We decide to stick together and prog as much as possible anyways cause it was realistically just the "leader" that was sandbagging the prog anyways. 2 days later someone from her server spots her search info and it says "Triple Legend <3" and she's now also got a TEA weapon and the UWU title on. Now, relating back to the "why are players so sensitive when discussing how to improve DPS" in relation to SPECIFICALLY DPS players. Tanks and Healers, by nature of their roles, have a very high impact on the immediate state of the raid. However, DPS players' impact is only seen post-kill and only really noticeable if you've got your (completely legal excel spreadsheet team) going in the background and upload (their business data) to (the number analysis place) to see killtimes/damage output/etc. So when it comes to DPS as a role, many players simply do not seek to improve because it is not as detrimental to the immediate state of the raid itself if they play suboptimally or completely miss a button. That and any form of criticism towards DPS roles is a very slippery slope due to the nature of Square Enix not approving of third party tools and the only real way to accurately tell if a DPS in the group is sandbagging or not is to USE said tools. It creates this environment where people can (and will) join high end content expecting to be backpacked to a clear with bare minimum effort and you're simply not allowed to bring it up whatsoever because to do so would be to risk your own account. Even outside of the experience in the story I typed above, I've found through over half a decade of PFs as well as other statics (savage and ultimate) that it's typically the DPS players that will sandbag a fight expecting others to carry their weight, and I say this being a player who's a DPS main/Tank offrole. Whether it be freestyle SAMs, never-melee RDMs, no steps DNCs, no Huton NINs, no song BRDs, etc it always feels like they do it on purpose because it's nearly impossible to really SAY anything about it to them since the DPS role's primary involvement in the fight is to help meet the DPS check(s) and the only criticism one can make when NOT meeting the check is to question players' DPS. Soemthing that, as stated before, we would have no way of knowing without illicit means because going off the enmity rankings is not a good gauge whatsoever as soon as there's even 1 death. With Tanks/Healers the primary question is "are they keeping the party alive" which you can openly discuss without need of any third party programs because buffs/debuffs/health bars are always very publicly visible and are known information. With DPS the primary question is "are they pumping hard enough to meet the DPS check" which you can only really see through (the excel spreadsheet of legend) and Square Enix does not like it AT ALL when you speak of this forbidden knowledge in game. The latter of the two you can't really (with Square's rules) openly discuss with the players OF the DPS role without fear of losing your account and the players in game have grown complacent with mediocrity due to lack of being able to be told that their performance is lacking and knowing that any and all criticism against them can be used to silence the person who's trying to get them to improve so they can ALL get the clear. tl;dr many mediocre/bad DPS players like getting backpacked and Square's anti-parsing mentality opened the door for people to be intentionally mediocre or even outright awful at the game while joining endgame content and disrespecting 7 other peoples' time because they simply cannot be criticized for the primary thing that their role SHOULD be doing in the fight.


saintjiesus

Yeah, this 100% changes my perspective on things. DPS is, at the end of the day, the most important metric in a fight, considering mechanical perfection simply allows you to see the entire fight. It’s difficult where to place blame, really. SE clearly being the root of the issue in being unable to find a method to help observe DPS performance in a way that also prevents abuse between players. I’ve mained WHM/RDM, and done a couple of savage floors on DRK. I certainly have noticed (through only memory and observation) that support roles tend to perform higher both mechanically and knowledge of their toolkit. But this is because they can track their progress from level 1 MSQ. DPS don’t ever have that luxury without having the use of 3rd party tools, complicated and unintuitive FFlog analysis (unless using xivanalysis of course), etc. The barrier of entry for high performing DPS is much more gatekept than support roles. Additionally, once you’re in Savage where your rotation matters significantly, the time it takes to learn your proper rotation and commit it to memory is massive compared to doing adequate damage as a support.


-iiTzSeb-

I place the blame solely on Square for this one. If parsing was openly accepted by Square and not so taboo then it would allow for discussion in pugs/in game over rotational optimizations or being able to point out to someone that their DPS might be suffering due to some factor in rotation or missed buff windows and how they might be able to fix it. Because constructive criticism is honestly how people in high end raiding usually end up improving. And many people will read this and think "oh but then if you allow parsing discourse people will get more toxic over it and flame others" and to that I say: yeah, sure. But there's also rules in game already that can be summarized as "don't be an asshole" and if someone is an asshole over parsing that's them breaking the "don't be an asshole" rule. The parsing part is tertiary to the actual issue.


saintjiesus

Then only other alternative I can think of is a complete revamp of stone sky sea to emulate an 8 person comp, movement, etc and a stricter DPS check on the dummy.


-iiTzSeb-

Honestly I think they should just accept that if they want to make high end raids and tote them around as an alluring piece of content then they need to openly accept parsing and the raiding scene as a whole. It's a bit obnoxious that they design some fights the way they do but don't support ACT/FFLogs/XIVAnalysis usage.


saintjiesus

My thoughts precisely. If you a game gives you a requirement, they should allow a method to t rack progress toward that requirement


awesomeuno2

Because by saying they could improve, you're saying people are playing wrong, and most players in this game do not know how to handle that well.


saintjiesus

I play wrong/make mistakes all the time. I’ve been the DPS that needed to be talked to before. Please don’t blanket statement this. In high end content, the development team designs fights that require damage output to be high enough or you will die to a timer. I never think anybody is playing *wrong.* However, I always believe everybody can get *better* if that is something they want to do and helps them enjoy the game more! I just don’t see why it’s hard to talk about satisfying a mechanic or a fight, being a DPS check.


awesomeuno2

Allow me to rephrase. Most people take you asking them to improve or change as what they're doing not being good enough. Most, not all, lack the cognitive ability to not take thay badly.


KaldarTheBrave

People consider it a personal attack if you ask them to align their buffs correctly or use their AoE buttons On top of that you get the usual excuses of "it's just XXXX" or "it's not ultimate" or "don't be a try hard" and other stupid excuses for people to be lazy.


saintjiesus

Lol, it’s like you were in my last static. People tend not to realize that high-end encounters are designed around performing rotations synergistically, and alignment isn’t optional, but necessary in clearing fights on-content.


ImSoScurred

I would argue alignment itself is optional*, but naturally all buffs should allign if used on CD... So if you play sub optimally they all drift anyways. I put the * for those edge cases where a buff is held because it clips etc. Week 1 for sure they need to all be synergized but at this point in the tier gear ilvl makes up for poor synergization where just okay play will get you by even if CDs mildly drift. As long as you're not losing major buff usage you'll likely clear content at this point


Pantspartyy

Idk why you’re getting downvoted because this is absolutely correct. Gear covers a lot of mistakes in this game and the later you get into the tier the easier the fight becomes to clear even with up to 10 deaths on some fights. Sure you won’t clear P8 like that, but the first two fights for sure. I’ve been around statics last tier that never talked about buff alignment and where their highest parses were 1-2 people getting a blue and the majority grey and they still cleared P4S with those numbers. People should be willing to take criticism and improve, but even with several grey parses a fight will be cleared. If you’re a good player trying to improve it just won’t be fun for you.


VagueSoul

Same reason why anyone doesn’t like criticism: they make the assumption that people are saying they’re stupid when really it’s just advice. People get embarrassed when they think they’re being called out.


Megumi0505

Usually with my static, if we're hitting enrage, it means we're dying to mechanics. So our convo's are less dps-focused and more how-to-die-less-focused. Lol Also, how to get less damage downs >.>


TheNewLedemduso

I haven't really encountered this and I'd love for someone to call me out when I've messed up my opener and don't recover from it for the entire fight. So I can't really say much about it... However what I can imagine is that this correlates with the misconceptions about these roles. People think way more highly about tanks and healers to the point that a lot of players are afraid to play those roles. DPS on the other hand are often seen as this thing that's pretty much just tagged along and can to whatever they want. Maybe players who have this "I play DPS, because it's not as anxiety inducing" mindset tend to not be prepared/willing to deal with the tighter requirements of harder content. Or maybe they don't even realize that these requirements are there.


ChaosKe

This is just me guessing but i believe its because it isnt an issue thats easily fixed. If a tank doesnt have aggro he basically just needs to turn on tank stance, voke, attack the mob or something similar - basically its just a matter of that player not paying attention. With healing its mainly when you die to a certain mechanic they just were too stingy on the heals and you just ask them to do some additional heals. Now when a player is doing bad dps you cant fix that as easily without going into fundamentally playing their job so i believe its why people would take it more personal (as in they are playing bad).


saintjiesus

It’s a tough pill to swallow, but I think DPS new to savage don’t realize how difficult the role actually is when there are tighter DPS checks to consider. Without any DPS checks outside of extreme and higher, the DPS role actually has next to no vital responsibility outside of performing mechanics. Jumping from that to tight DPS checks requiring you to closely analyze your rotation and how to plan it around and encounter is astronomical. Perhaps critique is sensitive because it’s very unexpected since the role isn’t conditioned into high end content through linear progression.


Time_Neat_4732

Thanks for asking this kindly! I’m a casual player who enjoys some chill raiding. Disclaimer: If I’m playing content before the ilvl goes up, I take WHM so my damage is less impactful on whether or not we clear. Positionals and constant activity are things that are comfy for me to work on, only a little stressful (though I have very little control over my level of uptime while learning a fight; if I’m not used to a mechanic yet I’m likely to just stare at it till it goes away before getting back in there, but I’m guessing that type of prog environment behavior isn’t what you’re talking about!). Rotation is another matter. As someone else mentioned, it’s unsettling to radically change how you have played the class for 90 levels in casual or solo settings. I play RDM with my hyper casual static, and initially tried to learn the opener, but I would tense up so much that I wouldn’t be able to click the buttons accurately (I’d click the one next to it, or the space above it, etc.) due to trying to follow a memorized rotation. I’ve actually always been like that! I tried raiding in another game which only had ten abilities to click, and hours and hours at the training target thing made absolutely zero difference. I avoided raiding in this game for two full years, even normal difficulty, because I felt like such a failure. I have some health stuff going on that might be contributing to this, but ultimately, even if I was perfectly healthy, I wouldn’t beat myself up anymore for not being able to memorize/execute a rotation. Games should be fun, exclusively, and I was really miserable back when I tried that hard. I really enjoy raiding nowadays! I decided to use a rotation that’s comfy for me (I’ve found it’s easier for me to do things in a way I could start over at any time, so I don’t hardcast any damage spells for example) and I have fun with it. My static is happily terrible and while we don’t parse, we do check fflogs sometimes and brag to each other about who was the greyest. I don’t play dps in environments with a strict dps check because I know I’d be hampering it. I wait for the ilvl to go up, I join practice or chill “clear for x” groups, or I bring WHM which has a lower skill ceiling! (I highly recommend WHM for anyone who wants to raid without memorizing a long rotation!!) I figure as long as I play in environments where my skill level is good enough, that’s just fine. As for the more specific part of your question: the reason I have an easier time adjusting to heal checks than I do to a rotation is, like most casual players, I learned my class by just reading the skills and figuring out how to use them myself! This is why I find positionals less challenging to adjust to - all the info I need is right there in the tool tip! No need to look at an outside resource, I can fully understand the necessity all by myself. Healing is also like this; “oh we die there even when we do well on the previous mechanics, so I’ll use this ability I know might help” feels a lot more natural than “hmm that wasn’t the optimal sequence of attacks I saw online” at least for me! I honestly think it’s totally fine to just play the game with no outside research or optimization, even at the top tier, but not while the dps check is very strict. As they explained when they buffed P8S, they actually tune those fights to the skill of optimized players on release! The rest of us probably can’t clear it (or at least can’t carry our weight) and should hang back and wait till our gear makes up the difference. :3 Sorry for the novel haha!


LifeupOmega

I guess it's embarrassing to be put on the spot, but when you're playing with 7 other people you need to get over that if you're underperforming. I'm trying myself to figure out how to nicely bring up how some of our players have like 60% uptime as a healer, or the scuffed tank rotations, or raid buff drift in the dps, because we're still cutting kills close to enrage when we really shouldn't be this far into the tier.


keiome

As a healer main who is doing my first dps this tier, I would say it's that fixing your DPS is a huge task. For healers and tanks, you just press more buttons to correct whatever you were lacking in. For DPS, you have to fundamentally alter how you play, your gear, your materia, everything. Knowing how to play your class and play it well requires a huge amount of research that borders on parsing behavior. It's not something other classes *need* to do and it isn't something that can be improved upon just by receiving feedback in the moment. Because it is a huge ask that many people don't understand the depths of how to do it, it feels more like a slap in the face. You can say to them that their damage sucks as tactfully as you want, but there isn't much they can do to change it in the moment because they don't understand *how* to. I think that's the crux of the issue. To put it in perspective, telling someone their damage needs to be better in a raid leaves as much of a sour taste in one's mouth as if you had said "stop sucking."


ShardtheFox

If I had to make a blind guess, I'd assume it's partially down to the number of players in each role. If someone is dead from healing, it's either healer A, Healer B, or the corpses fault. If a tank loses enmity, it's either the MT or the OT. If it's low dps, the responsibility is shared somewhat, so the blame is a bit more nebulous.


10Shodo

Guess it depends on approach. At the same time, if it’s anything except the highest tier content, I really don’t care. Worst case the shit we’re doing takes a few minutes longer. 🤷🏼‍♂️


saintjiesus

Tbh, poor performance in casual content/roulettes makes it more fun for me (generally majority sprout parties who I would never expect to play super well. That would be illogical and unfair). Especially if I’m healing. I like being challenged st least somewhat, rather than just spam DPSing a boss while watching Netflix on my 2nd monitor 😂


Gale_Grim

Well. I would imagine part of the problem (just a part at that), is that quite a few of the same players who play DPS are the same players too self conscious to play tank/healer, too afraid of the pressure. They think DPS is the easy job on some level, but it's actually pretty difficult. In fact every roll has it's difficulties and hardships. Their isn't an "easy" job, at lest not in savage content. It's designed to test your limits.


rcinmd

Because like most animals people prefer praise for a job well done over criticism for something they failed at.


saintjiesus

While you're correct about dogs, humans can communicate in far more complex forms. You teach a dog to sit by offering it a treat when it obeys. It improves, and enjoys the process. Helping somebody improve DPS is the exact same philosophy. You celebrate what they are already doing right - genuinely so. Ease into problem areas, starting with the easiest fixes with the largest impacts. You generally don't have to go further than that!


OracleofEpirus

A combination of issues. - Because crappy players don't own their own mistakes. - The bar for MSQ is set so low that previous century AI can do it, while the bar for savage is set so high that there's multiple failure points for an encounter, of which any single party member could trigger. A difference this large is typically only scalable by either people who are smart enough to see every problem beforehand, or people smart enough to figure out that there are problems they cannot see. - The difference between smart and stupid is that stupid has identified a bar for being "smart", so if you reach the bar that means you're "smart" and you can't possibly be the problem, while actual smart measures self by an inverse correlation of how much they suck at something. - The people who actually pass these problems typically don't get kicked out of their static, leaving the public player pool full of people who either don't make it into a static, or regularly get kicked out. - This is a pretty common issue for any game that is easy to learn, everyone plays including idiots and salty assholes. (standard Magic: The Gathering disclaimer)


Amezuki

You've basically just described Dunning-Kruger. And you're not wrong.


jaxpied

So OP is in a static that doesn't want to discuss dps according to him. This is either because these 3 or 4 other dps genuinely don't want to discuss this as OP describes or because OP is a dick. Just judging by your post where you somehow feel the need to call out every single dps player in the game and throw em all in a bucket (which is obv ridiculous because a shitton of ppl love seeing and improving their dps as you can see by the countless logs on Fflogs), my guess is it might just be OP


Shadostevey

Yeah, every time I see one of these "I've been interacting with this wide group of people and they all act like unreasonable dicks" posts, I assume OP is the problem. Especially when, like this post, people being dickish in this context is unusual.


saintjiesus

I’m sorry you assume I’m the problem. It’s very difficult to have objective discussions about in-game social etiquette without people assuming I’m a dick. I’m not a god player. I’m an average blue parse, clear the tier week 6-7 most tiers.


saintjiesus

I’m not in a static anymore. I’m slowly PFing this tier now and just trying to take my time. If you read the comments, and every one of my replies, I hope it’s pretty obvious that I truly am trying to discuss and gather input.


FrostyTheAce

FWIW, from your comments its pretty clear you're very respectful and considerate when trying to help people improve. Some of the negative responses probably stem from how there's often people that act like assholes and then complain about people not being receptive of what they have to say.


saintjiesus

It's really starting to upset me, honestly. I'm a pretty sensitive guy. And this community means so much to me. I don't care how "good" anybody is at the game. At all. I care that people have fun either solo or with the groups they choose to play with. ​ But now I'm just sitting in my office chair trying not to be overly upset because the community I love wants to throw stones at me for trying to discuss game design and working as a team...


Dope2TheDrop

See I think the problem is that now you’re saying you don’t care how good people are while making this whole thread indirectly complaining people are not good enough. In general it’s just a bit weird to me to call out all players of a class because you had some bad experiences. And then if people criticize YOUR argument all of a sudden you are sensitive and we need to calm down. I definitely agree with some of your points but you do come of a bit holier-than-thou if you ask me. Especially in games you can’t really force anyone to do what you want, either you find people that share your philosophy or you will keep encountering some bad apples. You said yourself you kicked people that you couldn’t play with so you must agree with this as well. Just because „you are a teacher“ doesn’t mean everyone in this game WANTS to be taught something even if it’s to their own detriment. I don’t know. Overall I don’t think this issue is that deep. Just choose who you play with and if you don’t then accept you will have some bad experiences, it’s the same for every game.


fortebass

people refusing to accept they aren't performing well is mmo 101, it happens in every single mmo. in other games, its excessively easy to just go "you, , you either need better gear or to fix your rotation cause your under performing " but sadly that is not possible in ff14, so a lot of players think its fine to casually just drift through content, never trying to improve and dragging their teams down just because they ultimately "finish" the content, even if it takes minutes longer. and then they finally reach content in which if you dont meet the check, they have never learned their class, and refuse any new input, and nobody can point out what they're doing wrong cause of how ff14 is on dps meters.


Seradiel

If a DPS meter is incorporated I'd like the animation locks to be either reduced, or some other fix for those of us not playing on top of the data centers. Truth be told I play on console, and even though I know my rotations to heart by now I still drift my GCDs. I can't do anything about it, sometimes my OGCDs shoot instantly, and others the delay is visible after pressing my buttons...


saintjiesus

Yeah, but you’re also getting to optimization territory. Clipping GCD’s occasionally when your rotation is otherwise great will never prevent a clear. And I’d absolutely never consider critiquing somebody for that unless they specifically ask for help with optimization


yggdrasiliv

A DPS meter will never be introduced. That's straight from Yoshi-p.


nillerwafer

And I back this 100%, whether or not a raid is successful is more complicated than DPS, and when the pressure of a DPS meter is present, tanks tend to sacrifice some attention to mitigation and healers tend to sacrifice some attention to healing. Both of these things can cause a wipe.


fortebass

i understand what you are saying and agree, but its important to realize that at the point your at your not playing badly, your at the "working on optimization" stage, your fighting with whatever level of delay your server is giving you along with your GCD rollover, your dps if measured would logically be middle or above on the charts if your putting in the effort to know what your doing and only have to deal with the games animation locks. the people i specifically are calling out are people who are just half-assing it cause "its just a game bro", people who hit their 1-2-3 and hardly anything else, and even half the time they break their own combo. people get lazy when doing roulettes and it'd be wonderful if we can just see whose dragging the other 3/7/23 other people down so we can just block or kick them this is an mmo, if your not at least *trying* to not drag down your team, then you shouldn't remain part of the group until you choose to do so. and the people who call it "work" are laughable, literally the point of a video game is to **use** the mechanics as they are given, thats not work, its playing the game.


Gale_Grim

I have a general rule. >You MUST be able to clear the "stone, sky, sea" version of the fight and to prove it, your must take a screen shot of clearing the dummy. That goes for everyone, even me.


AdrieBow

Personally I don’t really care. If I am doing something wrong or could be doing something better by all means let me know. Just don’t be a dick about it. I am not above the realization that sometimes I potato brain or tunnel vision and forget the floor is lava. But you also have to realize that sometimes you’re just not going to have great groups and that’s okay too. Everyone’s skill development is a different pace and things may be rough and we may have to try a few times, but things get cleared. At the end of the day it’s just a game. There’s no sense in getting upset over it.


DutchVanDerLinde-x

I personally don’t give a crap too. I run an fc and I have sprouts that are worried about doing something wrong in a trial/dungeon by apologizing in advance. I’m like “bro chill as long you’re contributing somewhat to damage you’re cool with me doesn’t matter so just watch what we do and have fun”


AdrieBow

There needs to be more FCs like this. I had a not so awesome with the few I joined. We eventually just ended up making our own.


saintjiesus

I don’t care either outside of content that literally requires damage to clear or you die. I just want to be clear that it’s the only time I care at all about how much damage anybody is doing. If it’s a roulette and the healer is out damaging BLM, I could not care less! It’s truly just content that is designed to require teamwork and communication about damage output to clear. (I’m the BLM in this scenario lol)


AdrieBow

True. I don’t understand why people waltz in to high end content to just mush buttons in what ever order they feel like that day. The concrete rotation of *most* classes I feel like is a struggle for some people (though I am not sure what they think that line around a skill that is practically screaming “press me” means, in this case). But at the same time when the board is exploding it can easily muck up your rotation. Especially in higher content. I think sometime the irritation and frustration mixed with feeling like you’re letting other people down can come out in ways they don’t really mean. Especially if there’s other stuff going on in life. Annnnd then, of course, you have the “never wrongs” which aren’t going to listen to you no matter what because they are a “game god” or some shit… Which is who you’re probably dealing with the most. You cannot provide these people feedback because *they aren’t willing to admit they made a mistake.* These people are likely narcissistic personalities and the tl;dr version of that is no matter how much you sugar coat and pander, it is always going to be met with toxicity. That is just who they are.


Cryo889

I feel like the people who are super sensitive about their DPS are the players who have been playing for a long time, but never stepped into hard content. When they enter this hard content, where dps matters for the first time, they can’t mental cope with the idea that they have been playing poorly for months or years. They know this game, they live this game, they are a veteran in their own eyes. They can’t be making major mistakes, it’s everyone else that’s wrong.


nillerwafer

I dunno man, I used to be a savage raider when I had a lot more free time and energy for MMOs, I was the head of my FC, organizer of my static, and delegated roles to those best suited. It was a lot of work and was practically like a second job that I didn’t get paid for. Somewhere along the line it stopped being fun, and I fizzled out. I’m now a semi-casual player, and while I can still clear content of similar intensity but in it’s new iteration as of the recent patch, I don’t sweat the micro details any more and I’m a lot happier. Turns out that you don’t really need a DPS meter and you don’t need to nitpick to clear content. All you need is a group of players you know is skilled and that communicates well. If you have that, you’re likely to clear high end content.


MadokaNeko

It’s a lot harder to improve dps on the next pull compared to the other two, and anyone who doesn’t care about their dps isn’t gonna care if they get told. People who care are already doing decent damage


Mothbread

Maybe it’s the way healers and tanks have to adjust much more to specific encounters compared DPS (excluding black mage)? Criticism of healing or tanking comes across as ‘you just need clarification on the fight’, but criticism of dps often sounds like ‘there is a fundamental issue in the way you are executing your rotation’. Or maybe it’s the fact that DPS rotations are generally more complex and the way that contributes to this tacit assumption among many players that it’s the more high-skill role—perhaps that perception just attracts people with more fragile egos. Bad encounters in PF can’t be helped, but this just goes to show how important it is for statics to set expectations. Let people know the level of gameplay a group is expecting, and state clearly that if someone is consistently underperforming, the group will sit down and talk to them and try to resolve the issue. This way everyone’s on the same page and you hopefully attract mature players that want to learn and know how to take responsibility for their own performance.


saintjiesus

This is a fantastic perspective! When you’re very used to receiving feedback, adjusting, etc; you learn to expect it and feelings don’t get hurt. DPS rarely have to receive direct feedback, and so glad his can often catch a DPS player off-guard, and they don’t have as much experience being critiqued to handle a confrontation comfortably


Seffi_IV

Because there are a lot of dps out there who think their pink parse back in E8 means they're cracked at everything and they talk like they are til they prove they aren't, then get mad when they're called out. It's literally pride. They get upset the fight isnt being cleared and already are on the lookout to blame someone else anyway most times. Had fairly recent personal experience with the matter... lmfao


saintjiesus

Lol I feel this. I had pretty high parses in Promise/Asphodelos… but that doesn’t make me immune to bad dps. My first clear of P6S was a literal 0. Proof that just because you can play will doesn’t mean you will always play well!


OranBerryPie

I want to put it a different way, l and mean no offense what so ever. You're bad at your irl job. You're always late and never finish the job you started. I need a team player who is willing to get into the nitty gritty and you just aren't it. I'm surprised they haven't fired you with all the things you haven't been doing. Now imagine that someone said that to you, you'd take offense. Especially if it wasn't your job and instead something you like to do to relax.


omnirai

Why is the assumption that the advice is being delivered in the rudest way possible? None of those things need to be said to make basic suggestions.


OranBerryPie

Because people are rude. Even if it was sugar coated and called criticism, the core message remains the same. What you do to relax after work or enjoy doing is still being attacked because someone thinks you aren't good enough. Are some people open to knowing parses and the like? Yeah, I'm one of them, but assuming everyone cares and wants to hear about it is a dick move. Assuming makes an ass out of you and I.


Paikis

The issue is that there are no meaningful enrages in 90 levels of Main Story content. Just like there are no meaningful tank checks and no meaningful heal checks. Any MSQ content that even smells like there may have been some challenge in it will be constantly whined about until it's nerfed (See: The Vault, Shinryu etc). Solo instances and job quests now have an easy mode if you fail them. We train the player base to be absolutely ~~dogshit~~ subpar at the game because it doesn't matter for the entirety of the story content. Then they get to the end, see that shiny 'SAVAGE' sign and dip their toes in only to have their leg torn off by enrages, tank busters that will straight up *kill you in one hit* if you don't use those buttons you've had but never needed and DPS checks that require everyone to be playing well, using their damage buffs etc. etc. They ask "Why? What's happening? Why do I keep dying?" and no one says a word before they're kicked out of the party and blacklisted. Or someone does say something, explaining that they shouldn't be spamming Cure, why their damage is trash and how to improve. And it doesn't matter how nice they say it, because who are you going to believe? The first guy who has spoken to you in seven savage groups telling you that casting nothing but your level 2 heal is a bad idea... or the 6 months of cleared dungeons and MSQ where you were hard carried by other players and you didn't even know it? DPS, mitigation and healing checks need to be a thing at every level cap.


saintjiesus

All of this. Also; don’t forget. Once you clear your first savage fight and enjoy talking about group synergy, you’re officially a toxic douche bag! /s


saintjiesus

I just noticed that the ping-ponging of downvotes and upvotes kind of proves my point here… What about this post is deserving of a downvote when I’m purely posting observations?


PyrZern

Don't worry about it too much. Just the other day, with a new player tank coming in to ask about waiting for healer watching cutscene but DPS pulled boss early. Majority of replies were, 'let dps die next time', but the moment you mention 'you pull you tank', suddenly you're the biggest asshole there ever is. Just do the best you can, dont harass other players, and report ppl with bad behavior. Leave the rest to GM to sort it out.


Old_King_Allant

Vast majority of discussion posts are downvoted here. You're way ahead. https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/search/?q=NOT+%28flair%3AVideo+OR+flair%3AImage+OR+flair%3Ascreenshot+OR+flair%3AFanart+OR+flair%3AFluff+OR+flair%3AComedy+OR+flair%3AMeme+OR+flair%3ACreator%29&sort=new&restrict_sr=1&feature=legacy_search&t=all


Shadostevey

Probably because people on this subbreddit don't like posts that solely exist to complain about crappy party members. Then again, that you can make a post that can be summarized as "Why does [group X] have this flaw?" and see that as purely making a completely inoffensive observation does say a lot about how you interact with other people.


saintjiesus

I’m not complaining. I observed a trend and was curious what others thought of it. I have a life full of things to complain about outside of a video game.


saintjiesus

And it doesn’t matter how many ways I try to explain this. Provide disclaimers. Etc etc. it’s just a thought that came to mind, and I value the input of other players over my own sole input.


Shadostevey

You can chant a spade is not a spade until you're blue in the face if you like, just don't expect to change anyone else's mind. This post is very transparently you griping about people who do something you don't like and even if it weren't, your many replies in the comments make it clear this is something you are deeply invested in. It should not surprise anyone that people on this subreddit have no interest in round 500 of some guy wanting to vent about his shitty static.


saintjiesus

Also, if you have 0 interest, I don't understand the difficulty to keep scrolling. This subreddit is full of discussions of all types of content. High-end discussion deserves a place, too. ​ The purpose of a discussion is to share perspectives, and perhaps have a civil debate to help learn perspectives. If I truly only cared about my opinion, I would not have posted an open-ended thread for people to share their experiences and input. I love 95% of the content in this game. I'm passionate about the game in general. And I love doing high-end content for a personal challenge. I do not care about being "better" than a casual player. I Just want to have fun playing the game, and I want other players to have fun playing the content they enjoy as well.


Shadostevey

If you truly wanted a discussion, you wouldn't have led with something as pointed as "Why do people have this problem?" as your opening question. If you wanted to hear other people's opinions, you would not be replying to everyone who disagrees that this is a problem with justifications and rationalizations on why it really is or clarifications meant to show they aren't addressing the 'correct' topic. Nor would you be replying to everyone who agrees or similarly condemns the people you're complaining about with affirmations and various iterations of "See, you get it!" If you wanted to learn perspectives, you would not be automatically dismissing everyone who suggests the problem is on your end or ask where you can take this conversation where you won't receive any criticism. Intentionally or not, this is an *obvious* "I want to air my grievances and have other people validate them." post. From OP clearly already having made up their mind on the topic to the constant defending of their position to the replying to almost everyone who comments, it is clear as day.


saintjiesus

Okay, thank you for the input.


freedom4556

Because it'll get you banned if you hurt somebody's feelings. It's the side effect of taking the opposite tack to free-for-all games like WoW.


saintjiesus

Sucks when the role is literally called “damage per second” but god forbid you discuss it


freedom4556

As a mentor-in-hiding, this game has much more of a problem with toxic casuals than toxic elitists. I don't want either, but I've no idea how the devs could strike a better balance. I do like the current situation better than the usual cesspools.


beetleman1234

My guess: healers and tanks are important and people who play them have high standards, they need to to play and learn their roles properly. Also, the weight of success lies on their shoulders very apparently. DPS are more chill and not as demanding, so people playing DPS might not feel as obligated to improve.


therealkami

Tanks don't have that high of standards with how many You Pull it You tank it and anti wall to wall posts there are bragging about how they're the leader of the group and how they taught some uppity DPS who the boss is because they dared touch a mob before the tank graced it with his presence while majestically RP walking.


saintjiesus

I will agree that DPS is a lot more chill. (Healer 2 savage tiers, DPS’d 2 savage tiers) I guess healers and tanks are likely just a lot more used to receiving feedback. Because I’ve noticed tanks/healers tend to be far less sensitive if you ask them to find ways to improve their DPS while ALSO juggling healing/mitigation/swaps, etc.


-haven

Because the game is a very casual game. And along the way there is little to actually teach players how their class/job actually plays. Nor is there any incentive for them to actively get better. The vast majority of players don't even do the content that requires knowing how a job works. While we will likely never get a sanctioned in game parsing meter. This game could do very well with a end of dungeon score card/ranking. On top of that we need things like the novice trials but every 10-ish levels that teach your job and are required to continue queueing up for future content.


Fit-Kaleidoscope-820

As someone who has played since ARR, I never use duty finder and expect to come out with an elite party so I literally don't care if we're an absolute mess. If we're unable to beat the instance, I'll let them know what will help and where our problems lay. I've never been met with irrational feedback from doing this. I give them a chance or two to fail and try and learn on their own and then I tell them what will help in a fun way because I'm here for the interactions and the good time. If it's a party finder and I expect more then I'll find a way to express that in the title. If it's for funsies then I also express that and go the same route as I said above. I think if you talk to most people and give them a chance to absorb and learn without shitting on them (not saying you are), the results go up accordingly. Some people are just plain bad and don't get it, maybe boosted their first character but I respect that too because they're on my team and we have to get through. A huge percentage of the people aren't here for optimal performance either and that doesn't bother me unless it's been stated that we need it.


saintjiesus

Oh, I should have been clearer. I don’t give two shits if you roll your face on the keyboard in casual duties. It may take a bit longer to clear, but you never know if somebody’s just casually doing it, if they’re learning a new job; etc. Personally, I love normal-difficulty content as a break from having to care about this level of synergy


Fit-Kaleidoscope-820

Yeah, word. and this is where my pet peeve involving crystalline comes in. Getting Someone on my team who decided they want to try reaper or something in a ranked match while I'm streaking up. The content definitely matters.


Potatolantern

A DPS rotation and optimisation is several orders of magnitude more difficult and involved than a tank “properly mitigating or swapping”.


saintjiesus

This post has nothing to do with what's more difficult. It has to do with responses to discussing what is necessary to clear a fight.


TheRandomMaster

Just as a side note. The best way to approach this in game is by suggesting everyone visit stone, sea and sky. A lot of people don't actually realize that there is a place to test DPS. Note there is one for each expansion so just unlocking the first one doesn't get you the latest one. Posting the link for it here but make sure to read the bottom to see where to unlock each expansion's version of it. [https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Stone,\_Sky,\_Sea](https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Stone,_Sky,_Sea) ​ As a general rule of thumb I tend to view it like this: Without food you should be able to beat them on min ilvl or at least get within a couple of % of it. This is the same for Tanks and Healers (each role and role type gets a different damage check). If the whole team is able to beat the dummy you're well within your ability to take it down. Then it's a matter of just keeping that rotation up for the entire fight. At this point it's normally good to look at guides if you're struggling with a certain piece to see how others do it and get their ideas.


jjkikolp

Obviously because there are a bunch of butthurt snowflakes and since calling out someone for bad dps is against the game rules they see it as an insult and get personally offended instead of asking why or trying to improve.


Kobold_Scholar

It's difficult to isolate what exactly they're doing wrong and if you're not careful you're going to run into various degrees of player ego. I used to raid lead in WoW and made a point on any fight we struggled with to check logs and inspect players for things they could improve on. Some were very easy. Forgot enchants/gems? I'd practically give them what they needed assuming the guild bank provided. Using their comfort talent choices? I'd have a casual chat with them about learning the new one just for raids, I don't care what they do elsewhere but if they can make a big gain for a small button choice it was an easy convincing. It's a team activity, after all, one where we've agreed to do our best to progress against stricter challenges. Sometimes they just needed time to get better gear or progress in the mmo grind of the patch. Some got harder. They had their gear prep done, knew their metas and what not but their numbers were low. So luckily WoW has combat logging to the point I can check their individual button presses. I can check those and compare them to other similarly geared players on the same fight. I could determine that they're hitting their best button 20 times less in 5 minutes and coach them on their rotation from there. Good stuff. One of my oddest cases was an off tank wildly underperforming on the final boss of a tier with strict tank checks and damage spikes. By studying his button presses for every attempt I determined he was far too restrained with his cooldown use and even that he'd misread and wasn't using a 45 second cooldown for survivability(Legion Warrior, so the shield that did blocks + breathed fire or something like that.) All this to say that I only did this well because I found browsing the data fascinating, enjoyed solving the puzzle and would get satisfied players watching their log numbers rise in the following weeks. Above all else I approached everyone with a helpful, passive voice. No accusations, no implications, not even a tone suggesting that maybe I could play their class, spec and role better. And even the oddest cases only took like an hour a weekend after raid night. So I ask you, does ff14 have combat logging that'll feed you that much info and more importantly do you have raid leads who'll get competency and understanding of every class in the game before they try to coach? I had to at least read guides and have the spec basics down to even approach a player or recognize their rotation missteps. Provide resources, be ready to teach fundamentals, understand above all else that some people are not as into video games as you or other great players are. One case I couldn't help was a dps that pushed buttons slower than the GCD. They became a tag along bencher for farm content and were happy, choosing or physically unable to perform at the mechanical best. This also accounts for things that aren't shown on logs. Personally I sometimes get information overload and space out for a second or two until a fight becomes more routine, and that isn't going to show on a log other than "got hit by mechanic." To cope I learn the fight and sometimes use a filler button or sub-optimal rotation while focusing exclusively on dodging, improving my dps once I'm used to the dancing I need to do. You may need to help people learn to compartmentalize and focus strictly on their aspect of the fight, help minimize distraction, etc. Coaching is easier said than done but the number of times I could point at a player and bark out "get good" and actually get results wouldn't fill the fingers of one hand.


SlothfulWhiteMage

I'm a tank/healer main, so take this however. If it's a static, feel free to comment away. If it's anything not Savage/Extreme/Ultimate, keep your opinion to yourself because I'm there to relax. If everyone meets the iLvL requirement to enter the duty, we're gonna be okay.


Riot55

Cuz we are fragile little manbabies


saintjiesus

If somebody knows a better place to post questions like this so I don’t get called a dick when I’m trying to communicate as clearly as possible, let me know. I like to discuss observations. It’s my job in real life to understand human behavior. I’m passionate about it, and all I want is just an objective discussion about the concept. Is it only because I’m discussing high end content that people are getting upset? I’m actually confused but I know somebody will respond to this saying I’m a douche again. :/