T O P
Roller95

People can be antinatalist for a variety of underlying reasons


corpsecrow

what would be some of the underlying reasons in your opinion?


Ainell

Neither. It's more of a philosophical / ethical thing. To exist is to suffer, making someone suffer is evil.


corpsecrow

but what if the child doesn't view their life as suffering. isn't it ethically wrong to project your worldview upon unborn people?


Quiet_Emphasis9444

In my opinion it’s wrong to force existence on someone who can’t consent. Since it’s impossible to consent before you exist, it’s always morally wrong to reproduce.


sickandtired5590

This is objectively wrong. Whether one perceives their life suffering or not is irrelevant. Drug addicts percieve their lives as happy and fulfilling. Yet objectively we know they are severely unwell and need treatment and help. People with mental delusions may think their imaginary friend that tells them to murder and slaughter is a good friend and they percieve their life as happy and fulfilling, yet objectively they are mentally ill murderhobos. The point is that whether one percieve their life as suffering or happiness is irrelevant versus objective reality. Everybody gets ill our body is designed to need to get ill so our immune system gets trained to fight off disease. This alone constitutes suffering. Actual childbirth is SEVERE trauma on the fetus. Read up on the biological processes that happen during childbirth in the fetus. Their entire system is in panic mode and the body has to flood them with a cocktail of hormones to keep them functional. Replacing the womb where they are in homeostasis with oxygen based environment that starts entropy, breathing on their own, feeding on their own when all needs were met by the womb beforehand. Just all of that in itself is severe trauma. I have two kids (I am steriized now and I found out me not wanting kids wasn't mental illness too late to get myself snipped in time. So I bear the burden of what I have inflicted on my kids every day). The point of me saying I have kids is I was there in the room when they were born and it's traumatic beyond belief! That alone is too much suffering in my view. Then add to that global warming, war, rape and murder... And I have two girls statistically speaking they have 50 % of being sexually harassed ( ons.gov.uk has a public statistics that 25% of all females between 17 and 74 will experience a form of sexual abuse in their lifetime). So me having 2 girls means that they got 50% of being the "lucky" one in 4. Let that sink in! It's nearly guaranteed one of my two kids WILL be harassed one way or another... This is the fucked up species we are! Do I need more reasons to not want to bring children in this world?


corpsecrow

but why are you afraid to suffer? do you want to live without suffering? maybe i'm a bit poetic but isn't the point of being human is to experience? the hurt, the joy, the hate, the love?


sickandtired5590

Nah that's a hard pass. I am not a masochist and my aim isn't to raise masochistic children that enjoy pain or need it ot feel anything else. This is not being poetic this is being brainwashed to think that you NEED suffering to be able to experience happyneaa and joy... This is like saying we need to go to war where we slaughter millions of each other every so often to then be able to experience peace. Or saying my little girls need to be part of the statistics and he sexually assaulted in order for them to experience being "human"... Nah mate as I said hard pass.


BNVLNTWRLDXPLDR

>but what if the child doesn't view their life as suffering. How can you guarantee that? >isn't it ethically wrong to project your worldview upon unborn people? How could it possibly be unethical? For whom is it a harm?


corpsecrow

well, that was my point. we can't know what a person will choose to view their life as before they're even born or even really a person at all. so we can't decide for them that they will suffer.


BNVLNTWRLDXPLDR

You're demonstrating a lack of understanding of basic causality here. A sentient being has to exist *before* deprivation can become a problem.


SamKlunes

[The ethical problems, among other things.](https://www.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/comments/yjwdle/what_is_your_reason_for_not_believing_in_having/iuq8nps?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) Anti-natalism is the view that places a negative value on procreation and concludes that procreation is **ethically questionable**/unethical. The gist is: harm/suffering prevention, the unethical nature of gambling with another life and the impossibility of consent to be born. Reproducing is always a gamble (e.g. congenital disorders/birth defects) and existence is imposed without consent. No one asks to be born or chooses the circumstances of their birth. For more info please visit: [https://antinatalism.net](https://antinatalism.net) I and many other anti-natalists are making a personal choice to refrain from procreating in order to spare our countless potential descendants from all the harms and suffering that is inherent to our existence. Everyone experiences some suffering, and some people experience disproportionately more suffering than others. Such as the tragic murders of [Junko Furuta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Junko_Furuta) and [Sylvia Likens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sylvia_Likens) in extreme cases. I don't want any of my countless potential descendants to come to any harm or to suffer at all. [Existence brings guaranteed harm for unneeded benefit](https://antinatalism.net/#2). The non-existent aren't deprived of anything or harmed from not being born. There is no reason to create a child that is for the child's sake, they don't need to exist. For the potential child, birth does not solve any problem that it does not first create. [The non-existent don't wish to be born but plenty of the living wish they'd never lived.](https://antinatalism.net/#1) I am sparing my countless potential descendants from guaranteed harms such as; pain, fear, sickness, injury, grief/loss, and death, etc. There is also the risk of extreme suffering such as; congenital disorders, severe illnesses/disabilities, poor quality of life, rape/SA, and murder, etc. No one asks to be born after all. I believe that I am doing a kindness for countless potential descendants by sparing them from such harm.


AwesomeTrish

For me, it's both to a certain degree - the world is too overcrowded to even assume my child won't already mirror my life as an insignificant little spec. There are far too many self-involved, selfish people my child will interact with which will cause them harm and bring forth issues in themself. My other reasons include: I have mental health issues and don't want to pass any genes onto an unfortunate youngster. And if my child is turns out anything like me, they will end up as a cynical absurdist just trudging through the day. I don't foresee the world being a viable place for an offspring to thrive. There are far too many worldly issues right now. It's not fair for them to struggle. I could do my best as a parent, yet still, they will suffer economically, environmentally and mentally. I'll hate myself knowing this child will suffer, and having them anyway.


corpsecrow

how can you pre determine your theoretical childs human experience? you can't say i'm suffering therefore my child will suffer. sometimes it is true, no doubt, but it's not something you know, it's an assumption based on your current state. however, you're more than free not to have children, i'm not trying to convince you that you should, as it is, i also choose not to have children, but i'm finding my reason to be very different than most people in this reddit. that's why i'm curious.


AwesomeTrish

My mental issues are hereditary - my entire dad's side of the family suffers from depression and personality disorders, and my mom's side suffers with ADHD. I know, most likely, my child will wind up having some mental health problems and will need therapy, despite me doing my best. Suffering is inevitable. The point of this is: the pain and suffering life will cause (it's ignorant to believe people will always have the best out of life) will outweigh the sensation of the happiness my child will experience. Scars of hurt and pain last longer than a fleeting moment of happiness. I don't want my child to experience sadness, pain, the begrudging work life, and throw them into this chaotic world as it is to fend against calamities - even if their life is full of wonderful things, I don't want them to know pain, it will hurt me knowing it's my fault they have a broken heart or they were bullied or they have anxiety or get rejected or they fall down and break a bone; they never consented to those things and those things will inevitably happen.


UnlikelyWord1043

Climate concern, population concern and a personal preference.


extrasecular

there is a high amount of diversity. i think/act misanthropic while this does not influence my anti-natalistic mindset