Ethnic map of Afghanistan & Pakistan
By - Profligatus
China is labeled as kirgystan on this map
Is Kabul a Pashtun or Tajik city?
It’s pretty much split between the two for the most part.
It's debated,Most of outskirts of kabul are definitely pashtun with tajiks dominating reasonable districts too,However the inland city is still unknown.
Seraikis roped into Punjabis lol
It boils my blood, but if my parents heard that, who knows what would happen!
according to the latest figures in pakistan (2017 census) the pashto speakers are now over 18% while punjabis around 38%.
note that this figure does not include pashtuns like Imran Khan who do not speak pashtu and have long settled in Punjab.
It's the ethnic groups, they will remain the same even if they start speaking different language. In case of Punjabis, many Punjabis have started speaking Urdu. But they are still counted as Punjabi.
Not necessarily in traditional Pashtun culture, if you don’t speak pashto and your family handy spoken it for generation then your not classed as Pashtun. It’s why majority of Pashtuns from the Pashtun belt, don’t class people like Imran khan , shahrukh khan, Aamir khan, Saif Ali khan as Pashtuns.
Really? I didn't know that.
But the Persian-speaking Pashtuns still consider themselves Pashtuns, right?
The ones who are aware of their Pashtun identity do, the ones who aren’t don’t.
Though Afghan Pashtuns tend to accept Persian speaking Pashtuns as Pashtuns a lot more than Pakistani Pashtuns who 90% of the time don’t accept Urdu/punjabi speaking Pashtuns.
I think it’s probably because afghans Pashtuns no Tajiks are culturally a lot more Similar to each other, they have married and lived with each other for centuries.
While in comparison Pakistani Pashtun and punjabi culture is a lot more different from each other and the ethnic groups in Pakistan tend to stop be located in their respective ethnic provinces, it’s not as mixed as Afghanistan, only in the past 70yrs people have started to travel and settle across the country. Even from the map above you can kind of see that.
You seem to know a lot about Afghanistan. Would you know perhaps how many or what percentage of the "Farsiwan" population are Shias? I mean in Herat and surroundings. Or around Mazar-e Sharif, Farah, etc. I mean non-Hazara Shias.
This is pure speculation. Any current demographic data from Afghanistan is extrapolated from the last census, which IIRC was 1979.
They're 2013 estimates provided by the CIA World factbook.
Most changes are just going to be migrations to Kabul.
It's not America lmao. People aren't moving across the country for work. 90% of the country hasn't left their village. They are rural people who are born in one place and die in the same place.
Yup. Missing Brahui and Hazara in Balochistan
Hazaras mostly don't live in Balochistan but on the central highlands and are well represented in this map.
Brahui minority on the other hand isn't included and have been living as minority among balochs for centuries.
He's talking about Pakistani Hazaras that do live in Balochistan (mainly Quetta).
When the Afghan King committed genocide against the Hazaras, many of them fled to the British Raj. They have been living here since. We even had a Hazara Army Chief.
There are a million Hazaras in Quetta
US: Here is an idea. Why don't you guys declare war on Pashtun tribal society and support the Tajik dominated Northern Alliance who have a history savaging Pashtuns?
Partly because there are 40 million Pashtuns in Pakistan, compared to 15 million in Afghanistan lol.
Other 23% or even 14%. Really helpful lol
I already know percentages of but this map's info is lame.
Other is 14% in Afghanistan. Its 23% in Pakistan. Its not hard to understand at all. This is from National Geographic.
Makes it look like 23% is nothing. Which is shitty lol
Not sure why it’s labeled the Durand Line when it’s the literal internationally recognized border of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Also Karachi should be it’s own color. [That city has every ethnic group of Pakistan represented in its population.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Karachi)
strange that sindh is the only place on this map that shows an ethnic mix. also missing saraiki people, almost 20 million ethnic group.
seraiki is a dialect.
Ah yes, Austria-Hungary 2 terrorist boogaloo
Afghanistan was fine until they sent their officers to be trained in the Soviet Union. Afghanistan is another victim of socialism. Communists backed the first coup against the king which destroyed democracy, and then carried out the second coup which destroyed Afghanistan.
Hahahaha, let’s forget the US arming the Islamists
It was the destruction of Afghanistan that caused the rebellion in the first place, and that rebellion was only later supported by the United States. The communists fucked up all of the traditional land and water management systems, and when protests broke out in Herat, they carpet bombed the city killing 20,000 people.
>Contrary to government expectations the reform was neither popular nor productive. Agricultural harvests plummeted and the reform itself led to rising discontent amongst Afghans.
If someone demolishes your house, and later someone else comes in and throws the timbers about, who was the one who did more damage to you?
The bombing of herat was the worst thing to ever happen in history. Such excessive force used by the Soviets for just an anti communist protest... It's unthinkable
One of the prior kings tried to modernize and was swept away by a conservative/islamist revold early in the early 20th century as well. None of these is a new problem with a simple villain.
The most recent king Mohammed Zahir Shah introduced modernizing reforms and a new constitution which limited his own power voluntarily creating a constitutional monarchy, Afghanistan was well on the way to becoming a modern state. Unfortunately, while trying to balance the east and west, he accepted a deal to have officers trained in the USSR, but they were indoctrinating the soldiers in communist ideology in addition to military matters.
I didn't know Herat was an ethnically Tajik city. Really?
Well not "strictly" tajik, but persian speaking. Northwestern Afghanistan persian speaking population besides aimaks have been historically and culturally more linked with iranian Khorasan than with the north-eastern lands inhabited by "proper tajiks", they are close, brother groups, but different.
I have seen maps where the population in and around Herat was described as Parsiwans (Persian speaking with no specific ethnic affiliation).
The problem is that Parsiwan means "Persian-speaking". So its use can vary so much. There's no name for the population. If Afghanistan was part of Iran, the population in and around Herat would just be Iranians. In the West, we would use the name "Persians", as we sometimes do for Iranians.
The population you're talking about is a settled population of cities and irrigated lowlands, old cultural areas. Not only Herat, but also pockets in northern, south-western and south-eastern Afghanistan.
It’s confusing, because you can have a lot of People of Pashtun, Aimaq, Hazara ancestry who have been throughly persianised, so you’ll never know the actual Make up of the city. Heck many Persian speakers in Herat don’t even know that they Pashtun, especially amongst the poor who rarely keep knowledge of their tribal affiliation.
So is it possible that people who come to live in a city, they may "forget" or "leave" theor original ethnicity? What ethnicity will they become? Tajik? That's not really a good name. I think they'll become people without any special ethnic affiliation.
I think the word "Tajik" is mostly used in relation to other ethnicities. You say "I'm Tajik", because you're neither Pashtun, nor Hazara, nor Uzbek..
Yeah after a few generations it’s possible, especially amongst the lower class Pashtuns or other ethnic groups. Guess they usually get absorbed into the Tajik or farsiwan umbrella term.
Tajiks are a lot like Punjabi’s ( in Pakistan) neither till recently were actually strong ethnic identity but a collection of groups that had a semi-shared culture. Punjabi’s say in Pakistan were traditionally divided along regional and caste lines and anyone who entered and settled in Punjab after a few generations became punjabi but in a geographical sense not a ethnic sense and the same is kind of true for Tajiks.
The term Tajik was just a term used by locals to refer to the urban Persian speaking population by central Asian Turks till the 19th century.
How about the name of the Persian-speaking people in north-eastern Afghanistan, who live in those big mountain valleys - most famously Panjshir. How are they called? Tajiks as well? Or how do they call themselves?
I also wonder how the Persian language came to that area. It makes sense that Persian dispersed via urban culture. But how did it get into mountain valleys? I would think they'd speak some kind of Pamir language, like those Pamir Tajiks.. Maybe they did, but gradually changed to Persian..
Thanks. This is a fascinating discussion. Ethnic identity, language identity and religious identity are not always a 1:1:1 match. I've never thought about Tajik identity that way.
Interestingly, Tajik and Hazara are the most strongly opposed to Taliban. It is tempting to guess that linguistic+religious identity are heavily involved, and not just a clash of conservatism vs modernity.
It has always been a heavily Tajik/Iranian city.
Isn't the Kunduz area populated by a majority of Pashtuns, the only sizable Pashtun community in the north of the country?
yes,and the outskirts of the city are also pashtun majority.
It seems they put some Aimaq tribes under Uzbeks.
well drawn borders
They're naturally made because of geography.
WTF are you talking about? Durand line was a disaster, a clamity but how was it natural dumbass? Ever been to the former FATA?
And does the natural ones have to drawn by people in an after war negotiations or do you have any evidence for this dissection of Pashtoon population ever before in the history? Stupid Punjabi
I'm not even Punjabi you dumbass. I'm literally from KPK.
No, a Pukhtoon can't be as swollen a Khutta of Pak-Mil as you are, we have our honor, do not try to surreptitiously get under our 'Shamla' you lier
lol who said I'm pasthun? I'm from KPK. Doesn't automatically mean I'm Pashtun. I can speak basic Pashto though.
I don't think there was a single coherent strongly-connected Pashtun population to be dissected..
Oh so who else lived here if not us, and how coherent and how dense and how affiliated do you need a population to be before you recognize the shared culture of its individuals and thereby their right to call it 'their' land, which 'their' ancestors inhabited?
There are Pashtoons on both sides, Saafi, Zadran, Wazir, Nasar, Ghilzai, Ahmedzai, they are intermarried ffs, sometimes the border cuts through the orchids and water sources.
Is it too much for you to understand?
Okay. So would you like if all the Pashtun areas were given into Afghanistan back then?
Yeah, Peshawar was the winter capital, the king could not sustain the throne for one spring if tribals (from this side) did not approve, Afghan (not Afghani) to this day is synonymous with the word Pashtoon. It weakened Afghanistan by robbing it of its lifeline and it weakened Pashtoon by depriving them of their homeland, Punjabis could have been happy with the partition (1947) becuase religion is quite decisive a factor in identity formation here in Subcontinent and look what the did to their Sikh brethren ( and vice versa) in the riots who were just as much Punjabi as them ( Tiwana, Virk, Dhillon, Bajwa, Randhawa Gill ).
But how should the Pashtoons have consoled themselves (am not religious at all but talking sociologically here), they practiced the same religion on the BASIS of which India was divided 🙃
Do not think about the current situation, assess by the principles and logic.
>( Tiwana, Virk, Dhillon, Bajwa, Randhawa Gill ).
Your confusing Jat Punjabis with all Punjabis. What proof do have that Jat Sikhs killed Jat Muslims or vice versa?
>it weakened Pashtoon by depriving them of their homeland
Our Pashtun brothers in the Pakistan Air force fought in 1947 to keep tribal Pashtuns from invading and capturing Peshawar. The sad truth is you Afghans wasted 7 decades trying to reunite with your Pashtun brothers and undermine Pakistan but the Pakistani Pashtuns wanted nothing to do with joing your country since day one in 1947. And all you got out of it was the destruction of your own country because you couldnt focus on improving your country which is made up of not only Pashtuns but Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazara's, etc.
O lul main Pakistan sy hoon, chawalain na maro idhar, punjabi to thy jat hon k na ho, punjabi ny punjabi ko mara baat ye ho rahi thi loray, kabhi waziristam, mohmand, khyber ya kurram gaye ho jo hum Pukhtoono k numaindy ban rahy ho?
The US-Canada border is well drawn.