By - LittleMizz
A buddy of mine puts it this way:
If you cant hold cheeses, you don't deserve to play macro games.
I know that sounds harsh and condescending, but I think its kinda accurate. We've all been there, and it still happens sometimes higher up in the ladder too. If you post some replays, we will be able to provide a few tips of what you can do to deviate to be safer in the early game.
I will agree entirely.
Good players are good regardless of if you are cheesing or not. I can go about 50/50 in cannon rushing vs Masters 3. 70/30 vs D1, 90/10 vs D3. And 20/70 vs M1.
The stats dont differ by much when playing macro. Good players are consistiently good across the board.
Cheese is only as good as you are bad. And if you can only ever execute one build without applying any game sense, or willingness to adapt, you will stay bad.
10% of cannon rushes against m1 are draws?
Maths gets funny up there. Nothing makes sence.
But then you learn to hold those cheeses, win a lot and now you have to practice macro against much better opponents.
If you are holding cheese in later divisions your base win % will improve accordingly. If you are bad against macro players you will stall until you can also play macro well.
I imagine most gold players are held back by their inability to respond to variations in the meta and cheese plays. Figure that out and you will progress.
In no way can learning to hold a rush be bad for your skill level.
All gold players are still gold because they can't macro.
18 scv rally to other side VS Zerg and toss. Vs Zerg at 2:00 you want to see natural expand finishing and 4-6 lings and 1 gas. VS Protoss you want to see gateway 2 pylons (steel gas if he hasn’t taken, eBay block natural if he goes 2 gateway)
You must scout. Vs Terran I double gas expand and stay home until 2 reaper hellion.
agreed with the must scout
>and stay home until 2 reaper hellion.
I love the stay home advice. It seems like *every time* I try to be aggressive and go scout/harass it ends horribly for me.
I'd recommend not bothering to worker scout against Protoss. 99% are of them are going to do something to harass your natural while it builds and it's a pain in the ass to hold it even with the worker scout. I say just blindly build it on the high ground and move on.
This. If you can't scout and hold cheese you really don't deserve a normal game
I like getting cheesed. The games are short, sweet and intense. If you know how to react they're usually pretty easy to win. Cheese me once, shame on you etc...
If you post what cheeses you encountered maybe we could help you with reacting to those, but generally sending an early scout is key.
Signs of early cheese are:
- for terran: no barracks in main, wall of made of depos, fast 2 gasses
- for zerg: 1 base, early pool, fast 2 gasses
- for protoss: no 2nd pylon in main, late or no natural
When you see things like these, you need to brace yourself for impact, which varies depending on the race you play.
ESPECIALLY playing as Terran, there's really nothing more exciting to play against, I totally agree. It feels reeeaally good watching a bunch of units die to my high ground siege tank while I'm safely building my 3rd CC and know they have no economy to follow up.
I really don't get why people insist on trying to all-in Terrans. It's like, thanks for voluntarily putting your units in range of my siege tanks. That's exactly what I'm hoping for.
Especially with most long games favoring P/Z
I can't beat the s**t out of you without getting closer
I've just climbed up to diamond, but I know that pain, my suggestion is for you to try a better scout, pro's and former pro's recommend to send your 18th scv to enemy base to scout then scout the map when your reaper pop's. That should help you to identify the early aggression on time for you to make a bunker and get more units
why don't you just play safer then...? if you're confident in a macro game and unconfident against cheese, you should just play extra safe. if you're losing to cheese and then continuing to do the same shit over and over, that's on you
Well I'm getting better at my macro but I wouldn't describe myself as confident yet.
well then, you've identified many things you could improve! if you improved your macro you would be able to use safer openers, if you improved your scouting and micro you would be able to hold everything with your current opener.
you've had 15 games of time to practice those specific things, and you'll surely have many more. you're going to have to learn the skill of realizing you're getting cheesed and thinking to yourself "oh awesome, i get to practice holding this!" -- and it IS a skill, you won't be able to adopt that mindset without deliberate effort.
Well, if you like to macro, just do a 17 scout. Always gas first 1-1-1 FE, and if you only see one base, expect cheese. If you expect imminent threat, build your cc on highground. It's pretty easy to just throw down a bunker or two and go straight to tanks pretty much as fast as possible. If it's against toss and they are one basing I like to get a cyclone because of the possibility of oracle / prism.
Eventually you're going to have to learn to scout, react, and adjust to what your opponent is doing. It's just the next stage of learning/improving at the game.
>>EVERY GAME IS A CHEESE
Welcome to Starcraft lol
No but really. It's human nature to just take the easiest path possible to get a win. It's like this in every game. People will always abuse everything they possibly can in the name of making something faster or ensuring a win.
Play to win, baby
OMG I was coming on ATT to say the same thing. I think I'm just not executing fast enough. I notice Vibe has his first tank out by like 3:15 and I'm struggling to get it out at 3:45.
If you rankl/meta is cheese heavy just scout more. It will be usefull in later in your progress after you beat this straightforward meta.
It's one thing to practice a build but if you scout a cheese you just have to suck it up and abandon ship and react. if you get out of it, you can still work towards the general strategy you had in mind before the cheese took place if it's still doable.
“My opponent doesn’t want to play the way I like to make it easier to win for me”
That’s the whole point of the game...
Terrans ability to hold cheese with like 3 Scv's left alive afterwards and then win the game Is pretty strong and one of my favorite things about the race. If you've got 4 marines and get hit by a bunch of roaches stalkers etc pull almost all the boys immidiatly. So long as you have a few scv's left, can drop mules and still have your production in tact you have a great chance of winning if it was really an all in.
There's definitely a "proper" reaction to cheeses. Sometimes it can be very, very tight in terms of a proper build response.
For example, if you scout cybernetics before Nexus then they will likely be putting on pressure to either delay or cancel the natural, and you will need a bunker for your first reaper and 2 marines popping (who will likely be fighting adept + stalker) to chase off the poke. If he does significant damage like cancel the natural, then prepare for follow-up all in. A zerg example is if you send your SCV out after it finishes building the barracks - if your SCV runs into zerglings as it enters the zerg natural, then it is a 12 pool and you need to keep the reaper home to defend.
Little details like that especially in the confines of the first few minutes of the game are important. There is little, if no margin for error.
You say you lose these games because you fail to get tanks out. This speaks of early all-in timings like:
* Gateway all in
* Blink all in
* 1 base Roach ravager
You should be able to get tanks out if you can scout the Twilight researching, IIRC. The other two hit before tanks, but if scouted you have enough time to get the Cyclone out instead and use the lock-on ability + SCV repair to beat back gateway/roach+ravager al-ins.
Are you able to upload your replays?
In TvT i recomend you going the double gas factory expand build (or the 3 reaper 2 hellion build) this is super meta atm and are super safe and supergood and can hold any cheese in TvT.
For TvZ I recomend you doing a standard 1-1-1 into 6 hellion lib 3CC build with Barracks scout. That build can also hold any cheese and the Rax scout will make you see anything comming so 12 pool, metabolic rush, poolfirst etc will be totally useless.
If you get cheesed alot in TvP just play gas first reaper expo so you get your factory early also 17 scout with a SCV so you know if there is 1 base, proxygate, maxpax etc.
Glhf (only 4,7k Terran EU but anyway hopes this helps)
maxpax is so good.
I've watched replays of people doing this shit against me and I've learned most toss can't play proxy vs proxy. It's like they only know how to deny the natural expo and spend most the time microing vs my first reaper that only targets the gas workers. They waste so much time and even if they attack my wall I can kill a few probes n bounce back to my bunker right as the stalker comes to threaten the repairing scvs. Proxy starport ruins the build too cause they try to fast tech while going up to three bases and you can deny the third pretty hard while double expanding yourself behind a cyclone push so long as you control well n shoot down the first phenoix trying to get lifts off.
>I've watched replays of people doing this shit against me and I've learned most toss can't play proxy vs proxy
More like most players can't adapt their game plan on the fly. It's easy to throw people off.
You have no chance against the real maxpax
You have to be pretty fast. Below diamond most people can't change their builds fast enough to do that. It's honestly a pretty safe opening in plat
No reason to attribute to the build itself errors in execution by the person using it.
Also proxy marauder in tvt?. doubt it
In What way do you doubt that? Do you have Any other advice or are you just here to patronize other peoples advice? I can asure you that i have hold proxy maruader with ease.
In his defense, I regularly destroy that build with proxy marauders.
Pull some boys and just continue production and kill the first 2 mauraders easely after that its hold. Momentum totally dead, simple as that
In my experience the Marauders don't get killed in that scenario. Also I move in with 3 Marauders, not 2. If people are moving out with 2 Marauders they're doing the build wrong.
The only way it's held is if the proxy, with tech labs, is scouted, bunkers made, and tech to cloak banshees.
Well I am sorry that your experience doesn’t cover higher skilled players...
What league are you? You might be right.
Sounds like we need to play :)
It's hard but still possible, you do have to react very quickly though. I tend to get a bunker and quick starport into a liberator, seems to work fine. Also you do have to pull some scvs to hold I think, not sure if it's possible without.
Cheese them first
Mix it up a bit
\- Proxy 3 Rax reaper into 5 Rax Reaper
\- Proxy 4 Rax Marine
\- Ghost Rush
\- PF Rush
\- If youre Below Diamond Supersonic Punch SCV Rush
Damn I think I need a new flair. Can I have a Dirty Cheeser Flair?
I love cheesing. I also love cheese.
People don't like your advice but it's the smartest here. Yeah yeah yeah, play a properly scouted macro game and you'll win. The internet hates micro play but it's just as important. We know, building SCVs is really powerful, but it's never enough to win the game.
SCV Scout once you start building barracks and check for proxy locations before heading to the enemy base.
It will delay your CC for about ~5s but will win you games.
I'm plat. I typically go Maurader first with 2 gas. Check for cheese / scout. If I suspect cheese I keep pumping them while working on a tank.
I think it's actually good to be cheesed alot. That way you get practice in how to deal with the most common cheeses and that translates into easy wins once you get the hang them, especially considering that most cheesers aren't even good at *that*! They'll often just gg out if you deflect them and if not, they're typically varying levels of behind.
A thing that helps with cheese, aside from the other advise you've already got, is to look at the replays of games where you got cheesed. Pay close attention to the BO's of the cheesers, what do they build and when. This will help you read what they're doing when you start scouting as per the advise others have already given you.
Depending on the cheese, you don't even necessarily have to do much to hold them. Often they even come down to whether *you* are timing things right (including being supply blocked when the cheese lands). So, when looking at your replays, consider that too, and look at whether you are building, producing and spending at the times and on the things you're supposed to.
You **will** get used to cheese and you **will** learn how to deal with it. Sometimes you'll still lose, because no one plays at 100% function 100% of the time. Even pros fall to standard cheeses occasionally. So don't take it too badly when you fail at holding a cheese and try to bring yourself out of tilt before going into your next game, lest you let one (or more) cheesers ruin your every other game too.
It never stops. Has made it to a WCS final with cheese.
And what you're interpreting as 'standard' probably isn't actually standard. Once you're in Diamond/Master's, it's not like gimmick styles go away. It just moves from bad 1-base all-ins to bad macro builds.
Seriously, literally every person in Diamond and Master's plays the exact same way. Do a very aggressive opening and then be ridiculously greedy behind it and pray your opponent doesn't know how to counter that kind of style while you spam out A-move units. For real I just blind-counter Protoss players at this point and it's my best matchup. They all do the same thing every game between 4.5k-5k MMR. It's repetitive and stupid but you just need to power through.
I know it’s tough when trying to play like the pros then get cheesed. When playing PvT try 2 proxy barracks marauder rush usually works well. Fight cheese with cheese.
I'm only G1 with Terran, but was stuck in silver with them while trying to follow vibe's build (it pulled my Z and P up to plat, but not making it work with T). I swapped around my T to use the [2-1-1 BOs found on Terrancraft](https://terrancraft.com/2018/07/03/2-1-1-for-each-match-up/) and am currently doing a lot better vs. cheeses, while still doing my best to maintain the macro taught by ViBE. GL!
There is no such thing as cheese just get good.