T O P

Legally you do not have to shower

Legally you do not have to shower

Asian_Blonde451

Honestly, as an outsider looking in… this sounds like a ridiculous argument you and your friend had.


NoHandBananaNo

It does, but maybe theres a less ridiculous underlying reason. I can remember ridiculous arguments I had with another guy about "should" versus "could" versus "ought to" when I was about OPs age. According to him, me saying he should try sushi was judgemental and I had to say he "could" try it. At the time I found it baffling but looking back on it now, it was never really about words or sushi. It was about our different backgrounds and probably his feeling attacked by his parents for not being "successful" in their eyes.


snail_juice_plz

Lol, my husband tries to do these arguments all the time hence why I dub him the most annoying person on earth. OP if she can’t chill out after two weeks and wants to nuke the friendship over it, let it go. If she comes around, great, but the continued pressure probably means she’s digging her heels.


kla_gene9

Are you my friend? Her hubby purposely does that too with ridiculous arguments. I learned in college to not fall into his silly trap.. or if alcohol was involved, I’d egg it on


snail_juice_plz

Ha! Glad to know I’m not alone. Thankfully he doesn’t take it as far as OPs friend. Sometimes I play just to get him all worked up too lol and he gets legit mad but chills out fairly quickly. Alcohol does not help. You just gotta laugh and know when to disengage, I swear he’s just too bored or something


kla_gene9

My friend’s husband says it’s to stimulate his brain. I think he’s bored too


snail_juice_plz

I swear! We’ve gotten in an argument over the best type of mustard. And whether sleeping back to back is intimate? The “correct” way to eat a fish! If he’s really being a pain in the ass I just wind him up and then say “Actually, you’re totally right. I’m sorry, THAT is definitely true. 100%, clearly, don’t know how I missed it!” 🤷🏻‍♀️🤣 He gets annoyed cause he knows I’m not genuinely arguing his stupid point anymore and sulks back 30 minutes later with “I’m sorry, I love you, sorry I get so worked up”


MotherFuckingCupcake

This isn’t healthy, but you go ahead and laugh about your abusive dynamic. “He abuses me! But I abuse him too!”


snail_juice_plz

It’s really not that serious but clearly triggered something for you. Sorry about that but I don’t think you have nearly enough information to come to that conclusion. And even if you did, your approach and comment would be the furthest thing from helpful for someone in an abusive situation. If your goal is to call out normalized toxic behavior in relationships so people stop engaging and abusing one another, I would suggest reevaluating.


Tight_Worth7178

Why you marry him then


snail_juice_plz

Cause he’s actually a whole person with a lot of great qualities and this one very annoying not so serious one? I feel like everyone’s partner has that one personality trait they find annoying - this is his. He gets passionate about things like mustard, lol, it’s not personal or ever turns into a personal attack.


Linksta35

I was gonna say, there's a difference between arguing these kinds of points and actually being upset and not talking to someone over these points like what's happening in the OP.


Eternaltuesday

Are we possibly married to the same person? I swear we end up in the weirdest most ridiculous arguments. We’ve argued about everything from buying tiki torches before or after work, to the smoothness/comparability of specific vodka brands. ( I am a bartender. He has never drank in his entire life.)


snail_juice_plz

Oh jeez, haha, I feel for you. The tiki torch has me rolling. My husband is also very oddly passionate about ranking the best fruit? I don’t understand how they pour so much energy into it. Like babe, get a hobby.


Eternaltuesday

Maybe we should arrange a play date so they can argue with each other and leave us alone.


MotherFuckingCupcake

Why are you married to this? As a “child of divorce”, divorce was easier than my parents resenting each other. And we can absolutely tell, even when you think you’re being subtle.


snail_juice_plz

I wouldn’t say I resent him for it. It’s an annoying quality that he latches on to weird semantics and obscure arguments - like people who get into “devils advocate” positions which I also find very annoying or how I get stressed out before taking any family trip. It’s not like he’s yelling or explosive, he just gets wound up and latches too strongly. Maybe flustered is the best word? Nothing ever so serious as to actually affect our parenting or relationship though. But I do appreciate the concern.


Madhops1134

As an insider looking in (lol), it’s not ridiculous. Honestly, it’s a really important conversation. I’m disabled and chronically ill and I do not always have the energy to shower when most people would societally expect me to. I wish more people had these convos and opened their minds to realizing that their way of life doesn’t *have* to be the right or only way. It seems like a silly argument to people who have the luxury and privilege to not worry about it.


MedioBandido

When OP said she had to shower, though, she means her own personal preferences demanded that she take another shower or she’d spend the rest of the evening uncomfortable. It wasn’t a statement on who is supposed to shower however often.


Madhops1134

Yes I understand that for sure. My point is it seems like the two friends were having a misunderstanding of what the point of the conversation was about. OP was saying he feels he has to shower a lot, and OPs friend was trying to explain that he might feel like he wants to, but he doesn’t have to. He wasn’t seeming to make a broad statement about everyone, but this friend was. So I think their issue was that they were having two different convos.


Necessary-Arugula-11

I disagree... I don't for a second believe that the friend was having a misunderstanding, I believe they were being a jerk and trying to score rhetorical points by arguing about semantics... I'm not sure which one is harder to swallow... I'd hate to be friends w/ someone who would argue about semantics like that... but I'd hate to be friends w/ someone so daft that they'd be legitimately confused about the original statement.


Madhops1134

“She started talking (lecturing?) about how certain people simply do not have the time to shower. Just because I *choose* to do it doesn't mean everyone *has* to. She said, unlike me, certain people have to work multiple jobs or have responsibilities I simply do not have, hence they can't shower.” …… “She said the way I phrased my sentence, I was pushing my own standards upon others. Others don't have the same privileges as I have (note that we are talking about average people in the developed world here).” I believe this topic hit close to home for OPs friend and they didn’t handle it well.


puzzled91

So op's friend stinks and never thought about disabled people just busy, poor people.


MedioBandido

💯


tabac-en-paris

Vast majority of people understand in the context of any normal conversation, “had to shower” means “I shower because I prefer to not smell of my work”, the “had” is to satisfy a personal preference. It’s a perfectly correct use of the word, and it is ridiculous to take offence.


Langoustina

You're right, I think that a lot of people are too quick to push their ideals on other people. Some people CAN'T shower every day. True. But the point OP was making was that they had vigorously worked out and become drenched in sweat, and then also had worked for 8 hours and smelled like sweat and food. If you're disabled and chronically ill, you're quite likely not to be doing these things, so you've got a LOT more leeway with how often you have to shower.


Madhops1134

Good points!


thatstoomuchsalt

Are you the friend?


shhhOURlilsecret

Yeah she's that friend in the sense that annoying friend everyone has that likes to play semantics. But they don't realize just how annoying they are to everyone else.


Madhops1134

Yeah it’s super annoying to encourage furthering conversations around privilege and marginalized people. Super inconvenient to those of you who just want to ignore the issues of race, disability, etc. all together. I think this thread got so off and negative so quick. Like why does bringing up talking about disability issues cause everyone in here to get uncomfortable and downvote so hard? Reddit is disappointing in that way. Btw, I am not that friend in real life because all of the people I am friends with are open minded and understanding, as well as more than capable of having a simple conversation turn into something bigger than just them.


shhhOURlilsecret

Said the super annoying person giving long winded explanation that was completely unnecessary for something most people inherently understand the difference of.


Madhops1134

Your responses are more disappointing than an unsalted pretzel…. Gday mate.


shhhOURlilsecret

About what I expected from you. Tedious and unnecessary.


Madhops1134

I expect absolutely nothing from you. You have a good boring life in your boring bubble where the earth actually does revolve around you :)


shhhOURlilsecret

Here you are continuing on...


Madhops1134

Not in real life lol. But I relate to what ops friend was trying to say.


Infinite_Chicken1968

It isn't about showering. It's about the conversation regarding a very anal friend


[deleted]

OK so a disability prevents you from maintaining acceptable hygiene levels, that sucks for you but it doesn't make it any less objectively gross if you're stinky. There is still a clear right and wrong, you're just not able to maintain the right levels.


Madhops1134

Disappointed at how ableist some of you are. It’s disheartening to say the least


SayakasBanana

Her friend spent too much time on Tumblr and now wants to virtue signal over shower privilege bu taking down her friend, lol


SINGHISKING211084

If its not a sign of TRUE FRIENDSHIP, I dont know what is! OP and this friend are for life besties!


pizzaroll94

Does your friend shower?👀


vorpal9

Yeah, I think a lot of people are skipping right by this. The friend might have gotten upset because she doesn’t shower as often and took offence. The argument was her justifying.


idiot_of_the_lord

Especially if she has more than one job


FoggyMammoth

My skin is extremely sensitive and has a mind of its own. I break out into itchy hives every time I shower. It takes 2-3 hours for the red blotchy spots to fade away… so that’s pretty inconvenient. Even if I wanted to shower everyday, its too irritating, itchy, and dries out my skin. I’d use lotion - but lotion ALSO irritates my skin and makes me break out in hives. I typically shower 3 times a week. I’ve done even less when my skin starts to feel super irritated. But I genuinely don’t think anyone would ever know that about me. I could see myself getting a little defensive if I had a convo with someone close to me about hygiene rituals. I know people typically shower everyday but my skin just can’t handle that. Maybe I’d feel almost envious that she can shower twice a day and it not be a huge inconvenience? None of my friends know about my skin condition… so this theory seems like it could be a real possibility.


ThrowRA_pleb

I have the same thing happen to me! Whenever i get wet for too long, i get itchy spots but only on my arms and torso. Everybody i tell thinks its weird and i never seen anything about it before


Specific-Emu-1962

kind of sounds like you are allergic to water. I've read about that before.


fashunzandcellbio

Have you tried seeing a dermatologist about this? It could be the water at your place or products you are using. Not showering daily is not normal, no offense.


FoggyMammoth

No offense taken - I know that most people view showering as a daily ritual… which is why I wouldn’t disclose this information to anyone IRL. I haven’t been to a dermatologist (it’s been on my to-do list for awhile but something financial always comes up that takes priority) I’ve tried to use all sorts of different soaps and shampoos, natural and organic… but none of them help. I have found a lotion that isn’t too bad on my skin, but it’s not very thick or moisturizing. I’ve been dealing with this problem since birth - so there isn’t much I haven’t tried to fix it. I genuinely think I’m just allergic to certain chemicals and possibly whatever additives they put into our water. I break out really badly in pool water too…. But ocean water and lake water - I’m fine.


wildbeest55

Take it from someone who has wasted hundreds of dollars trying to cure my skin problems myself- go to a dermatologist.


ashyza

I wonder how you would do showering someone where rural, with well water then. I'm sorry you have such a difficult problem, it sounds frustrating.


topinanbour-rex

You need to stay clean, showering is a way to do it. It's not a must, it's more a luxe than a need.


Suspect222

This argument was definitely a red flag that she ain't hygienic, it's the psychology behind why anyone would respond as if though they feel attacked by that statement and provide an argumentative response.


OtherwiseInclined

The argumentative response seems to indicate she has a chip on her shoulder, but we don't know why. Maybe she was simply shamed a lot over it at some point and now feels strongly about the subject. So I wouldn't jump to conclusions about her lack of hygiene. Depending on your skin type and how hard your water is showering as often as OP may actually be more harmful than not. So long as one does not smell bad it is fine.


ToneDeafPlantChef

Why do people think that not showering literally twice a day every day = unhygienic. Most people I know shower every other day or every two days.


debbieae

I think a lot centered around the phrase "have to" vs the showering itself. I am wondering if this is not a self help program or counselor telling her to think about things she "has to do". This is not unreasonable, many people overextend themselves as they accumulate "have tos" that have not been re-examined in a very long time. They may have poor boundaries about letting other people add to those "have tos". It is important in that context to push back whenever that trigger phrase comes up. The problem with OP's friend is that she tried to push her "have to" of examining the phrase "have to" onto someone else. OP was merely expressing their own "have to" with legitimate reasons behind it and not insisting that the friend needed to follow suit. Ironically the friend actually did the offense that she was incorrectly trying to pin on OP.


thehellcat

Yeah this seems to be her screaming loudly "I DONT SHOWER AND I'M INSECURE ABOUT IT"


No-Needleworker93

I reckon she doesn't shower once or twice a day but every second day or similar and she felt you judged her (reading your post it was pretty judgemental with the "just shower" comment), some people can't shower every day because of their skin and some might really struggle with depression or a chronic condition and they have used their spoons and some lucky people have a genetic variance that means their sweat doesn't smell. I think you hit a nerve and made her feel like she was gross, you say she showers regularly but that can mean every second day for some people, what you know I assume is that she doesn't smell gross so you think she showers. I also know that what you were trying to say is that you, personally, for your peace of mind, had to shower 1-2 times a day. She definitely did not comprehend that that was what you were saying and it's a really weird fight for her to pick unless she was self conscious/insecure.


ThrowRA-Attach

I second this. Some people, for example those with disability, often struggle to shower regularly. Perhaps your friend has a hidden disability that prevents her from showering daily, and this is a sore point for her.


HuggyMonster69

I've had a few discussions where "I had to x" gets people offended because it gets interpreted as "people have to x" I have to wash my hair daily, due to a scalp condition (at least if I want to keep my hair), but for a lot of people that would be Really damaging


No-Needleworker93

Yeah, I feel like that is where OP was coming from 100%, but it triggered her friend and I just think it's likely because she felt unhygienic by comparison.


KarensSuck91

thats her friends problem. op talking about themselves is fine.


No-Needleworker93

Yes, that's what we said. Except we tried to shed light on why it might be a problem for her friend.


Adventurous-Good6450

Is it possible that your friend has experienced homelessness and did not have regular access to a shower? Or experienced depression and struggled to find motivation to shower? This seems like a bizarre overreaction, which would make me suspect there's a strong emotion that caused her to escalate to this level. You're not in the wrong, but this might be a situation where an apology might help, or perhaps trying to carefully check in and see if she's doing okay. If she's unwilling to respond, maybe just send one last message offering to listen if she wants to talk in the future.


Decent_Ad6389

This sounds like one of those "can/could versus will/would" debates that assholes do. You know, you say "could I do that thing" and they say "I don't know, could you?" Argument on semantics is pointless and often combative. Apparently according to her, the only things you "have to do" are those things encoded in law. Never things that have an implicit (because of personal preference) or (because of societal norms). I have to ask waitstaff to not include cheese on dishes. I am not legally obligated to, but personal preference makes it a "have to" for me. This sounds like she was itching for a fight and and gave you the added bonus of snooty condescension.


WorshipGlorificus

I'm not legally obligated to poop so I guess I "don't have" to poop ever.


InsertDramaHere

I mean you aren't legally bound to poop but you do *have* to unless you want to die.


tossout7878

>I mean you aren't legally bound to poop but you do have to unless you want to die. HEY you're not the boss of me


A_Fluffy_Duckling

> Argument on semantics is pointless and often combative. Welcome to Reddit!


KittyConfetti

Legally no one is bound by law to eat. But does a person HAVE to eat food? One would argue yes.


MidnytStorme

> I have to ask waitstaff to not include cheese on dishes. I am not legally obligated to, but personal preference makes it a "have to" for me. What if you're allergic? Then, yes, you would "have to" if you wanted to continue living.


BufferUnderpants

Check ur shower privilege OP how dare u


777taurus

You aren’t legally obligated to wipe your ass after you take a shit but you still have to.


7HawksAnd

Ew wipe? I shower after each dump.


Libertyfive3k

Sounds like there's more to her reaction than just this one discussion. She commented that you are pushing your standards onto others. Is it possible you exaggerate a lot or come off a bit judge-y sometimes? I'm not suggesting you are, but if you talk in absolutes all the time "have to" "no one should ever" etc. maybe she's getting tired of the exaggerated language or it hit a nerve for her on a recent topic. I knew someone who called everything she didn't like "excruciating". After a while I started rolling my eyes and questioning if she really knew what that word meant because she otherwise led a pretty comfortable life. Anyway, maybe you can get the chance to apologize and say you didn't realize you were coming off a different way than you intended.


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Grolar_Bear_

Hey OP, my sister and I used to have fights like this all the time when we were younger so I can relate! After a stupid fight we would always have a post mortem where we tried to figure out why the hell we both got so mad, and most of the time what it came down to is that we both felt insulted/disrespected, usually due more to how the other person expressed themselves than what they actually said. Tone of voice and facial expressions can turn a comment that would normally be harmless into a perceived slight. Of course it’s ok to disagree, but things like “what are you on about” and “what are you even trying to say,” especially if said with a certain tone of voice, could definitely be seen as insulting (especially to a sensitive person, which I’m guessing your friend is). The fact that she reacted so strongly makes me wonder if maybe you sometimes are dismissive of her opinion when you disagree, or express yourself in a way that seems judge-y/condescending (which your shower comments could be seen as), and she’s been bothered about that for awhile and just reached her limit and blew up... And now, rather than telling you why she’s really so upset, she’s punishing you passive aggressively in the hope that you figure it out and repent. So my advice would be: Start out by apologizing. I do think you were probably at least a little bit rude to her during your argument, and saying you’re sorry for that could open the doors of communication back up. She should apologize too - she definitely shouldn’t have frozen you out after your argument. She at least could have sent you a “hey I’m busy/need some time to cool down but yes let’s talk soon” text. Hopefully you guys can work through exactly why this difference of opinion turned into a fight, and how you both could have/should have handled it differently, and your friendship can grow stronger as a result and you can both laugh about how silly this whole thing was. sorry for the super long comment - your post resonated with me bc I can really relate to both you and your friend in this situation. :-) (edited for clarity)


1969Mach1Owner

It may be more personal than that: are you aware of her shower activity? Perhaps she thought that you were in some way referring to her as she may not shower as often as you?


warpspeed19855

In my experience weird petty arguments are usually because of something else. She is possibly stressed out and just wanted to vent at something random.


FoxInTheMountains

I was about to say, it might've just been that. I got into a really petty argument with a friend once and was really confused with where it came from. All of a sudden I just looked at her and was like...is everything okay? She burst into tears and said her sister had been diagnosed with a significant disease. Also, there comes a point in a petty argument where you should just step back. One side or the other has to before feelings get hurt.


Boga11

Do you guys hate each other?


schetzo

This is the weirdest escalation ever. Btw if you work out you definitely need to shower twice, maybe not legally obligated but from a hygienic standpoint, no offense it’s nasty not to.


bingingwithabed

This is a super weird escalation. It either means that the friend got so mad at the semantics that she gave OP the silent treatment (making her an insane person/terrible friend) or it means she secretly doesn’t take showers and felt judged or maybe she was mad about something else and used this as an opportunity to be snobby and jerky to her friend.


TheCuriosity

My theory is she perceives a pattern in your conversations where you present your first world problems and position it as if you have no control over said problems, that they all 'happen to you' and she was done with it and decided that this not-so-on-the-mark convo about how the world is set up that you *had* to shower *twice in a day* to be the hill to die on. Also maybe your teenage brother might be dealing with depression.. or maybe your friend had dealt with depression and showering is something people that are dealing with depression or other mental issues tend to avoid.. thus adding a tinge of judgement towards those with mental health issues. So maybe this is why it hit a nerve and was chosen as the 'hill to die on'?


Devi1_May_Cry

This right here. The friend wasn't frustrated with this conversation. The friend was frustrated with a pattern of behavior by the OP, and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. If it were me, and this wasn't the first time, I would be frustrated by the OP and her stream of first world problems. Also, using "woke" as an insult wouldn't be welcome and would escalate the situation.


equilateral_pupper

I agree that OP could def be escalating. If OP was more chill why didnt he just let it go? “Oh yeah not everyone has to shower technically i guess”


Devi1_May_Cry

"I got invited up to the lake house this weekend, and now I *have to* get a new outfit." "Every time I drive by Chipotle, I *have to* stop and get their queso." "I *have to* stop by and see her new puppy later." The friend wasn't making a point about whether OP was legally obligated to do something. The friend grew tired of OP's use of language to create burdens ("I have to") out of what most people in the world would consider privilege. When OP didn't seem to understand the point friend was trying to make and insisted on arguing semantics instead, and then calling the friend "woke," OP seemed to prove the friend's point that he/she was being entitled and oblivious.


CptCroissant

I'd def recommend you work super hard to keep this drama magnet around


DiZeez

Y'all need a hobby. Thia kinda shit is what's wrong with people nowadays. Who bothers to talk about this crap, much less argue over it?


Madrigall

>nowadays Lol. This type of shit probably started wars between medieval nations back in the good ole days. There really isn't anything new about pedantry.


equilateral_pupper

Perfect example of 2 ppl who should not be friends having a convo. If just one of them had given the other the right of way, the whole stupid situation would have been avoided. Instead the girl is digging for some random reason why people dont have to shower (she should have just said u dont have to cuz its ok to stink in the peace of your own home god dammit) and op smelling her BS started poking and prodding her into a corner.


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7HawksAnd

You know what she meant, she was being pedantic and you took the bait, and neither of you could just end by fixing the statements. “I have to shower for my personal standards and reasons, penal codes aside. Of course no one HAS to do anything you pedantic fuck. How’s your food?”


morethandork

Oh yeah. Calling her a pedantic fuck definitely would’ve fixed it...


7HawksAnd

I mean if you can’t bust your friends balls are you even friends?


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Drae-Keer

From how high?


Local-Lychee-9016

I need a shower to wash this bs from my brain


GI-JUGG

This is one of those "Is Water Wet" type of arguments. It came from nothing sensical, makes no sense, and will never make sense. No, you are not legally required to shower and some people can't because they don't have access to clean or running water. But showering makes you clean when you are dirty, so it's a luxury you should abuse because you can. And your friend latched on to your verbage for no sensible reason. When you say "You have to shower" that brings the unsaid understanding that if you don't you'll be dirty, sweaty and funky.


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rajwebber

IMHO she sounds like someone stressed out about a situation and what you said resonated with it. For example she feels like she has no control and is getting bossed around at work (for example) and here you are going on about how important that people i.e. her, have to do things and that they don't get a choice about it. She can't blow up at her boss or whoever is causing these problems but she feels safe enough to confront you as a proxy for the problem. I'm not saying this to defend her but to give you another perspective on what might be going on in her life, and that she might really need some support right around now but doesn't feel she can ask for it.


endof2020wow

You could have resolved the whole thing by saying “you’re right, I don’t have to. I choose to because I feel better after a shower.” But you escalated, then she tried to explain her point of view you insulted her. You picked this fight more than she did. She made an accurate offhand comment and you were combative at every turn Instead of messaging to try to talk, send a message that you’re sorry for any confusion. You do understand her point and you miss talking to her Even if you have to eat humble pie you feel you don’t deserve, is it worth losing a friend over?


wildbeest55

She’s literally got mad at his wording. He said “I” not “everyone in the world”. She got butt hurt cuz she probably showers once a week and felt attacked. Not his fault at all.


endof2020wow

She said “you don’t *need* to” and the OP responded yes they do. They obviously don’t, but they kept arguing they do Then they called their friend woke as an insult because she was explaining something she shouldn’t have had to explain in the first place So what if the OPs friend washes once a week or every other day and was offended when the OP said they require two showers a day. She made a minor comment about it. Then the OP picked a fight over it and started accusing her friend of picking the fight All the friend said was “you don’t *have* to”, something any normal person would respond with “you’re right, I want to” and not the stubborn “yes I do”


Coolio86

Y'all are weird AF. How pointless.


[deleted]

What’s so funny is that like I live in America now, but I used to live in Mexico in pretty decent poverty? Like I didn’t even have flooring at home or a door to our bathroom or anything, no a/c…but because it was so hot, I’d sweat a lot and even though I was only like 5, my mom would make me shower twice a day. I think it’s just funny that the friend is making it seem like a big privilege which I know it is to some people in some places, but it wasn’t that deep to me even when we had nothing.


h_witko

I think as a hypothetical situation, her point was really interesting. Legally you don't have to shower, but you felt that you had to. You're not actually required to by any health codes or legal ones, just by society's standards, which yes, have been set by hygiene. I feel like she was very confrontational in this and because you didn't understand her point to start with, it made her more frustrated. As others have said this may be due to previous trauma or it may just be that she's realised from how you both dealt with the conversation that you aren't compatible as friends. It's rude that she's ghosted you but probably best to just move on


dhshissb

Showering every day isn't considered healthy for most people's skin. And unless you are out in the heat or something most people won't smell bad after one day. It sounds like she doesn't shower every day. And it sounds as though she was giving clear hints that she was beggining to feel hurt or like you were implying there was something wrong with that, which you either missed or ignored.


scarywheel

This sounds like an Internet Discourse-style argument spilling over into the real world, full of semantic quibbling and arbitrary application of social justice cudgels, and if anyone is still wondering whether the Discourse is unbearably toxic, look no further. OP, people like your friend argue like this because of the self-righteousness rush, not because it helps anyone understand the world better. If I were you, I'd deprive her of future opportunities to provide herself with dopamine hits at your expense.


Icy-Organization-338

This is beyond ridiculous. You were not putting your standards on anyone else. That’s how you feel about your own hygiene and comfort. It’s something you ‘have’ to do for yourself. Obviously hygiene and showers are not legally enforceable and if she is offended by this conversation, life in general is going to be a serious struggle for her.


dhshissb

When her friend said not everyone can shower every day she said "c'mon, just shower" that is pushing.


techsinger

Perhaps you can use this as a learning experience. When you first detect that a discussion is turning into an argument, shut it down and move onto something more pleasant. That is, unless you want to go through this all over again. Arguing over the words "have to" seems a bit ridiculous compared to the value of a friendship. It seems like she picked the fight with you, but you missed several opportunities to deescalate it. Hopefully you'll both realize the folly of this and be able to resume your friendship.


pdxkirk

Doesn’t sound like a friend to me.


Uniquelykind

Maybe she’s just stressed about something else and doesn’t know how to talk about it. Or she is really mad at you and argued with you over showering and in that case drop that friend.


xX_Relentless

I’m sorry but what the hell did I just read? No offense lmao. Just take your showers and don’t mind what anyone else says. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


Otherwise_Ad9796

I mean it's a stupid argument, neither of you are wrong. You don't have to, it's socially expected yes but not a legal obligation. As someone with a new baby (UK) showering is a luxury. However having to tell my husband to shower drives me mad


fluffybeetle

Friends are replaceable.


SmallYeetIntoTheVoid

It sounds like your friend doesn’t shower 😂😂 and your conversation indirectly called her out 😂 honestly tho, chill out on contacting her - she blew up over a dumb conversation. Enjoy your free time and have an extra long shower.


nahnotlikethat

Yeah, i think your friend has determined that you are privileged in some other way and has become increasingly irritated with you, and this was the stupid last straw. Because man what a dumb fight for her to pick.


Schr00dinger

Suppose she has a loved one or someone close to her who does not have the privilege of bathing once a day. Obviously, you do not know the situation of this person because she never told you about it. So, recapping, she was affected by your words about an ultra-normal and daily action because she has a close person who cannot perform this action. She knowing that you do not have knowledge about the situation of her close person, knowing that you are only telling YOUR experience, knowing that showering is not considered by the vast majority of people as a sensitive topic, knowing all these things she chose an aggressive position and of criticism towards your person. She could approach the topic in another way, but she still chose the conflicting way. You could ask her why she reacted that way, that you did not know that she knew a person who does not have the privilege of bathing daily, but if her responses are still aggressive or conflicting, or if she does not have anyone in her life who cannot bathe daily, I would recommend that you stop worrying so much about her and dedicating so many thoughts to her.


Gamer_ely

Her entire argument falls apart the instant the point of view of the sentence falls to you. From your point of view you have to shower because you cannot stand to not have showered. So from your pov you in fact do have to shower in order to not go crazy. People who act like this are fucking EXHAUSTING! You ever play a board game with a rules lawyer like that? Where every single word is examined for any fault? It drives me insane. You're not writing a fucking contract, your speaking about your fucking day. And by fucking day I don't mean a day in which you have sex the entire day.


dhshissb

OP says "just shower" in the post. She was not just talking about herself. It was also dripping with judgment (we are talking about first world people here) - news to OP, some people in the first world litterally can't shower every day. Which is what the friend was trying to express, and was then called "woke" as an insult. I would drop OP as a friend too honestly.


peppercruncher

>some people in the first world litterally can't shower every day So what? When you want to add all possible exceptions to every communication, you won't be able to communicate anymore. If I say:"I have to drink a coffee in the morning to wake up." and you come up with:"There are people who can't afford coffee every morning!!!!1", then "woke" is already the nicest possible description I can come up with.


angelcat00

Does she seriously never use the words "have to" to describe something she isn't necessarily legally obligated to do? She's never said "I have to go to the bathroom" or "I have to get up early tomorrow"? That's just such a weird linguistic hill to die on.


kahrismatic

Is she neurodiverse? Or could she be? Bear in mind women have much lower rates of diagnosis as they present differently and in more socially acceptable ways, and a lot of people aren't comfortable disclosing. Taking things literally is very common for those who are, as is not having the social abilities to read and manage situations created by that. Not trying to diagnose, but this sounds like conversations I have with students on the spectrum dozens of times a week. Edit: typo was annoying me!


Embarrassed_Tax_6547

I think your friend was over prickly and gunning for a fight. This is literally a stupid hill for her to die on.


yellowsubmarine45

She is being pedantic, but she is right. There is a difference between WANT and NEED. Seems like one of those silly things that escalates for weird reasons. I once got in a a stupid argument with someone who insisted that the MAJORITY of people did a certain thing. I said, I doubted it was a majority, he quantified it as about a third of people. I said that is not what the word MAJORITY means. MAJORITY means more than 50%. He kept calling it a majority. It was a stupid argument that got way out of hand. I think it comes down to some people being more literal and specific in their use of language than others who are more about creating a generalised impression or feeling. It was silly, but all I wanted him to say was "Ok, a sizable minority then" but he REFUSED to accept that majority means more than half! It was all very silly on both our parts. But he was wrong, and I will die on that hill. ;)


peppercruncher

Well, if 40% vote for party A, 30% vote for party B and 30% vote for party C, then the majority voted for party A. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯


B1gD1cV1rgn

>but her reaction was... very spicy... You know what's even spicier? Not showering.


AffectionateDeadDeer

Well.... you don't have to be her friend.


AffectionateDeadDeer

How dare someone downvote that hilarious joke.


Icy_Sign3947

Your friend sounds annoying as fuck


morethandork

Counterpoint: OP sounds annoying af.


RomanaNoble

You both sound ridiculous. Although technically, she is correct. You don't have to shower twice a day, you're choosing to.


babieglow

it’s nitpicking. we don’t HAVE to do a lot of things, yet we “have” to eat, we “have” to go to work. OP doesn’t sound ridiculous, she’s talking like how many ordinary people do.


Woodit

Is your friend autistic?


TheRedditornator

TLDR: Your friend doesn't shower.


VortexMagus

She is correct. Technically correct is the best kind of correct.


Greedy-Ad-1829

“Alright guys, I have to go home. I gotta go to bed soon because I have work in the morning” “You are not legally obligated to go home. You choose to go home.” Honestly I think your friend probably thinks you’re kind of uppity for showering twice in one day and decided to play semantics and take offense to your insistence that you have to take a shower. Just because you have to doesn’t mean everyone else does. You have to go to work, you have to go to the bank, you have to go pick up your brother from soccer practice. By your friends Logic, you should be saying you choose to go to work, you choose to go to the bank, you choose to pick your brother up from soccer practice. No one speaks like this.


Clear-Impression-912

Rediculous argument. You might not legally have to shower, but it’s extremely unhygienic not too shower regularly. I’ve worked with some smelly ass people and it’s unbearable and there’s been some awkward conversations about it. She can argue all she wants that you don’t need to shower but it’s having respect and decency for your self and others around you why you should do.


Rynyrynryn

Sounds like your friend doesn't shower.


fourcrayfish

What kind of stupid ass "argument" was that? Shes getting mad because you said you "have to" what is wrong with this woman😭😂


Illustrious_Clue1883

She sounds absolutely exhausting, She needs a shower and a nap. I think you need to rethink your friendship, who has time for this crap?


YuppieKiYay

Moral of the story: if you’re having a conversation about a topic on which people are frequently judgemental, or which is treated as being a moral failing, and you’re specifically being judgemental about “some people”… then if someone in the conversation gets angry, it’s probably because they’re feeling attacked and are getting defensive, and you should decide whether the friendship matters more to you than the words “okay, sorry, didn’t realise this was a touchy subject, let’s talk about something else”. Was her reaction weird and unnecessary? Yes. Was yours? Also yes. Are you inevitably going to get a thousand comments agreeing with you because she’s “wrong” for, implied, not showering as much as you? Yes, because shower frequency carries a lot of implied moral weight in some cultures, seemingly including yours. You know social impetus and norms are on your side, so you can assume that anyone who disagrees with you is used to being made to feel bad about it. If people could change their situation with many of these things, they usually would. I think you should text her that you realise you must have come off judgemental and aggressive, you should have let it go, you miss her and you hope she might want to rebuild the friendship in the future. And then leave her alone. If she doesn’t contact you again, you have your answer. Either way, learn to decide whether you care more about being right or about maintaining relationships *before* it’s too late.


mramirez7425

If she is willing to end a friendship over something this silly, let her go sis. She sounds like a lunatic. Shower how often you want, she's being super weird.


bflat20

Ask your friend if she was dropped on her head when she was a kid.


WorshipGlorificus

My guess? Your friend is nasty and doesn't bathe enough. You made her feel bad.


CursedCorundum

Your friend is an idiot. Yes you HAVE to shower. Devoid of legal clause. Having to do something it's either required or necessary. Required by law? No (it should be) necessity? Yes. You stink, it's necessary to bathe. Also she can kiss your ass because technically bathing gets rid of germs Text her right now and say 'i win the argument!' But anyway. Your friend is a combative fuck wad


RageAgainstYoda

This is fucking ridiculous. My friend and I do this but it's in fun. "Hey if you need a ride to your appointment I'm available." "That's sweet but you don't have to take me." "I don't HAVE to do shit. I'm telling you I will. Now. Will you need my help or not?" "No my BiL has it but thanks." "Ok. Was that so hard?" And we both laugh. If she's making this big a deal of it she's either got...... something..... wrong mentally or maybe not a native English speaker and doesn't understand the nuance? Idk. Screwy.


chloex150

What a weird argument also she is right you don't need to shower if you don't want to but people do it


m_sad_sope

This feels like she took something WAY too personal. Did she have any issues showering as a kid? Maybe her family didn’t have a lot of money and they didn’t shower often? idk this is all I can come up with since you say she does shower now


Suitable-Doughnut-76

Sounds like your friend doesn't shower often and the shower topic ticked her off lol and she went in to justify it in the most stupid way possible💀


hello__brooklyn

I’m gonna be honest and probably delete this later, but I shower only on Sunday. So every Sunday is shower day. Never stink nor feel any different, but I’m not outside much or working up a sweat. And I don’t sweat really unless in extreme heat but only on my forehead. Like I don’t wear socks or underwear at all and none of my shoes or jeans ever stink either. I was my jeans but never had to change my shoe insoles whereas I have friends who shower more who had to leave their smelly shoes outside. My ex was a toe sucker and savored mine. Feet always non sweaty and never clammy. I also have a nice bidet I guess.


GoldieCurlsGirl

Just be sure to get a good work out in and not shower before you hang out.


MaryContrary26

Where I live not showering is socially unacceptable. It's one of the basic ADL's. In the mental health community, regardless of your standard of living (and I support a community that lives below the poverty line) it's considered a measure of wellness. So yes, it may be a requirement depending on where you live.


SubstantialHentai420

Kind of an unspoken social rule lol. I unfortunately have some mental issues and grew up in poverty so showering is something simple yet hard for me to get the ambition to or slow down enough to remember to do lol. People(family mostly I don’t have friends or go out) do mention it especially my mom and one of my sisters.


livininthecity24

This argument may be less about words and more a conflict of values: are you taking responsibility for your own choices? Too many people use words like "must", "should" and "can't" and blame circumstances instead of acknowledging their own freedom of choice. Saying "I have to shower" may be innocent on its own, but it's different when people talk like this all the time such as: "I must go to work", "I can't come to your party", "I don't have time to help you", "I have to take a break". These people talk as if they are a victim of their circumstances and have no say in the matter, whereas in reality they are making a personal choice every time. It can be very annoying to talk to people who don't take responsibility for their actions, you know the type. Perhaps this argument was a symptom of a bigger issue?


ACutieWithAfroPuffs

Dawg I don't even shower twice a day am I'm a recovering germaphobe. If your bed is clean and if you go to bed ACTUALLY clean. like no dead skin cells and what not. You're gonna be clean when you wake up. If you aren't. Shower before bed. EXFOLIATE. Wash your sheets weekly. ALL of them. Pillowcases too. CHANGE as soon as you get home and are done going out for the day. DON'T WEAR DIRTY CLOTHES IN YOUR BED. AT ALL. NOT EVEN TO SIT. If your bed stays clean youll stay clean through the night. Unless you're like middle aged gym teacher sweaty at night. and your bed gets all wet n shit


FFBlitzace

This is like Liam Neeson asking if Trix being exclusively for children was enforced by law.


cmariej

Even though this argument is just... idek. Technically you DO have to shower for your job... at least bathe yourself. Usually in a handbook or some contractual agreement it mentions that you need to be clean and keep good hygiene, or at minimum not bang, which is also reasonable because nobody wants to sit with a stinky waiter. Law isn’t the number one dictator of what’s right/wrong or what’s best or appropriate.


Quietwulf

I think some people are wired in some very ... strange ways. I got into a very similar argument about whether or not things have objective or subjective value.


Silver_Ad_5161

Well if that's the hill your friend wants to die on🤷‍♀️😂


SINGHISKING211084

Cmon OP, this is the kind of argument you have with your BESTEST friends in the world! Please dont let this friendship go away! And I am not being sarcastic here!


moulayw

This conversation seems way to weird to still be mad about after 2 weeks. Is there anything else going on with her or you two?


Vedis-4444

I have no idea what to make of this . . . Maybe your friend has no time to shower?


-Yare-

There are other mandates in the world besides legal ones lol


WheredMyMindGo

Your friend wants to talk because they’re going through shit. You’re either dense or a bot.


Doctor_Expendable

Some people are very, *very* pedantic about weird things.


charliethefocks

I don't see an issue, she is technically right. You choose to shower, you choose to eat, you choose to walk. The list of things you have to do, is rather short. Some countries around the world bathe twice a week. Nothing says you have to date someone like that. That's a choice as well.


Beyonce2021

Uhm, showering isn’t a privilege it’s just basic hygiene..if she dirty just say that..


yurachika

She probably got defensive because she thought you were making a jab at her showering habits. It’s a very defensive reaction, but to be fair many people do passive aggressively make comments like this. “Oh, I HAVE to buy my food from Whole Foods, I can’t understand how other people can’t” Is a kind of… snobby? Way people make slights at others. I don’t think you said anything wrong, and it sounds like you certainly weren’t making any comments about others (except maybe your brother). Maybe she thought you were implying that you thought she was unclean, or people who shower less than twice are unclean.


OkPhilosopher1313

It's weird she picked this topic to argument about. Sounds like she might be insecure and jealous about something and tried to grab a topic to put you down and make you feel inferior? Does she tend to act jealous in general?


ConIncognito

Well yes, nobody is legally required to shower, but you will be a social outcast if you’re a dirty goblin. I don’t like pointless arguments about nothing, so your friend sounds annoying.


smc5230

Maybe, if she ever talks to you again, focus on the fact that you were say that YOU had to shower. You weren't saying that everyone else absolutely has to shower daily or twice daily. I do think she was looking for something to fight about or was just in a cranky mood? I do not think anything you said was wrong, for the reason stated above.


Complete_Entry

I'd ask her if she was grammar checking me, or if she was just being a fucking asshole? Then the conversation would end.


oarsandalps

It’s a saying. I wound just ignore her


hiemsvenit

Dude I had a friend just like this, we were best friends for 7+ years and were constantly arguing over the most ridiculous and pointless shit. I always felt like I was dragged into it and i never knew what would set her off into one of these bullshit debates. All I can say is when we stopped being friends, it was a weight lifted and i realized most people don't constantly stress you out. We seriously once had a 4 hour long argument over whether or not an authors intent in a poem was relevant or not. I would just find myself sucked in and then just get so frustrated over spending that much time arguing over things I didn't even care about. I saw her semi recently and it was the same shit, she's just an extremely combative person and I just went nah I don't have to do this anymore, see ya. If this is recurring then just save yourself the trouble and back away, if it was random, maybe she was just ornery that day.


CherryPopcornGoddess

She got triggered. Not your fault; her reaction was all about herself, and she unloaded on you.


desertdilbert

I didn't read all the comments so I apologize if I'm duplicating. It definitely read like you were imposing your standard on others. That you expected others to shower under conditions that you have defined. It is perfectly fine to say "**I** have to take a shower after...." because you feel icky and want to take a shower to feel fresh and clean again. This is simply about how you feel and not about others. Nothing wrong with that at all. On the other hand, to say that "People have to shower after working out" is rightly interpreted as an attempt to control others. It's possible that there is a compelling case for exerting that control but it is without a doubt control. I assume your brother is being reminded to take a shower because he is causing offense to others, not just because a day has passed. And yes...words do matter! Tell your friend that you are sorry you got so worked up over nothing. That you were only talking about yourself and not about others and you certainly did not mean to suggest or imply anything.


hesaysitsfine

Sounds like she is trying to remind you that shelter/ access to hygiene amenities is a privilege, which it is, but also she got really fucking hung up on it without explaining that. It really bugs me when people start taking something you say about yourself such as “I have to shower (to feel myself/clean/okay)” and try to universalize it to invalidate you because you have the privilege to shower and not everyone does. The parentheses part of my sentence above is implied by your statement but she is acting like it doesn’t exist/matter and is merely reducing the action to the word ‘have’ to prove a point in the dumbest way possible.


Fat_Sow

Usually arguments over innocuous things have a deeper subtext. I guess think about what else you spoke about or things that have happened which might cause that.


[deleted]

your friend is a dumbass who looks for faults in everyone and has an insatiable craving to be the smartest and deepest-thinking person in the room and needs everyone to know it. Hahaha omg imagine having a real debate with someone like that. Cut ties and direct them to a mental health facility so at least a professional can try to determine what trauma led to this person being such a dense asshole


zzFerrari

omg your friend doesnt shower everyday kkkkkkkkkkkkkkk she seems like old portuguese people that learned to shower with natives OMG i wouls definetly started laughing on her face


ATLAZuko33

This is kind of a hot button for me personally because I have suffered an injury that makes it EXCRUCIATING to lift my dominant arm. I also have black outs if I get over heated or over exert myself. Showering is one of the tasks that is SO painful and draining I can only do it once a week if that. I think she was trying to point out that not everyone CAN shower every day and you both got overly defensive. Maybe reach out and try to point out you both overreacted, you see her point, and you don’t want to loose a friendship over something as silly as showering habits.


Nearby_Implement_640

Is this new behaviour from this person? Perhaps they have a lot going on in their life now and under some stress and acting out. If not this person must be exhausting to have a conversation with.


RayboTheDude

First, it's a ridiculous thing to argue about. Second, she was clearly trying to pick a fight since she was so bent of the words "have to." It's just semantics, but she sounds like a childish brat who always wants to be right. As for her argument about time, I can be showered and dry (and clean) in three minutes...when I'm paying for the water. But if I'm in a hotel, I'll take as long as I want to. Seriously, no one is so busy that they can't spare a few minutes to wash the world off of them. I wouldn't worry about this. She sounds like a high-maintenance brat.


Lxsse54

Me as an outsider in the café would probably have started laughing lol, that’s an hilarious argument.


Daddysnectar

This arguement sounds petty. It feels like the same as two friends going out to eat and one chooses to eat healthy and ridicule the choices of the other person. It is valid to say that showering is a free will activity. It does not have to be scheduled or even frequent. Hygienic needs vary. But yeah this is petty and I think you were triggered unnecessarily.


LarkLoone

She misinterpreted what you meant by “had to”. You “had to” shower because you feel dirty or sweaty, which makes perfect sense. But she interpreted that as an obligation or a standard that you expect others to live up as well, like it’s the social contract for everyone to shower twice a day. Maybe? Correct me if I’m wrong. Weird hill to die on though.


TheRestIs_Confetti

I grew up poor & had to do military timed showers basically (in & out in 5 or less). No way could we shower twice a day & not even every day. Maybe every other day because that would add up in expense. I get where your friend comes from because I do not shower twice a day even now & I always feel bad if I possibly need to. My boyfriend showers as you do, twice a day & I was surprised when I first found out because it isn’t normal for me. I think for people who have been told that they can’t shower as often because of the expense that they can see it as a privilege or sometimes unnecessary. In my case it was bad to shower so much because we couldn’t afford it. Do you know if your friend was raised in a poor household or if showering was considered a privilege? This is the only perspective I can see her coming from unless she’s just very passionate about being conservative with water usage


IronLadyRaven

She was kinda mean, implying that hard working people always don't have to shower and you're somewhat privileged? It's a weird and unnecessary thing to lecture someone about. It's comes down to personal reference, feeling, hygiene and time management. Doesn't matter if someone doesn't or does shower.


[deleted]

I think you guys should channel that energy into actual serious topics of discussion. Of course, I'm not saying you HAVE to.


equilateral_pupper

Sounds like ya’ll just arguing to argue + calling her woke made her even more defensive and be honest with yourself, why didnt you just let it go?