T O P

The US has a worker shortage. And there’s thousands of immigrants waiting at the border. Am I an idiot or could we just let them in and solve the problem?

The US has a worker shortage. And there’s thousands of immigrants waiting at the border. Am I an idiot or could we just let them in and solve the problem?

DiscipleOfAniki

This is lump of labour fallacy. Bringing in immigrants does not reduce the number of available jobs.


Cooper1241

Cause it creates more jobs right? They got to get housing and food like the rest of us.


tutetibiimperes

And they start their own businesses. I come into contact with a number of construction and agricultural firms that were started by immigrants who came over here, started working at bottom-of-the-barrel manual labor jobs, leaned the trade, saved up money, and eventually used that knowledge and savings to start their own successful businesses.


1amathrowaway

Yup, immigrants have to eat, have to get housing, many need cars, need to buy non-essential basics like clothing, shoes, etc. More people = more demand in the market. It's not just a one-way street.


sigmaluckynine

The beauty of macroeconomics at work


dw565

Does this change in the context of immigrants who remit a large portion of their earnings back to their home country?


1amathrowaway

Most of the people who do that are guest workers who come to America to make whatever money they can and then go back once their work period is up. Even so, they would still be making purchases in the US, maybe not so much in the same magnitude as a permanent resident, but they still do create demand.


tutetibiimperes

Indirect foreign aid like that is still a net positive. It helps lift people in their home county out of poverty, and it helps towards creating an equilibrium for immigration. If one family member can earn enough in the US to support three in comfort in Central America that’s three people who won’t feel an immediate need to immigrate.


BishopUrbanTheEnby

This is a mercantilist viewpoint. Aside from the obvious “they still spend plenty of money in the US for housing and food”, sending money outside the country isn’t a bad thing. CoL is generally lower in the countries migrant workers come from, so that money can often cover more expenses “back home” than it could “here”. And inevitably some of the money sent internationally works its way back to the US because of how much we export/how much of global marketplaces are owned by American companies. And sometimes workers send back money so their families can pay for travel to the US. Wealth Generation among the poorest people is unambiguously a good thing, even if they don’t live here (yet).


antonio_bananas21

Sounds like if we made it easier for their family to immigrate as well, it'd solve the problem.


TuringPharma

Sending money back to underdeveloped countries allows them to develop their economies and eventually participate in global trade, providing goods at better prices to the US. While it may not be immediately beneficial, I also don’t think it’s immediately detrimental (since for every dollar they’re sending home there’s however much money they are making for their employers which I assume is more than their employers are ‘losing’ on them or the costs of production)


Fallline048

In that sense it would be at “worst” equivalent to importing that percentage of the good / service (which would still generally be economically beneficial to the US), but with (assuming the work isn’t under the table), the US probably reaping better tax revenues, and the worker would still contribute to local demand for their own needs.


ManBearPigMatingCall

Shhh, don’t stray too far from the group think


flakAttack510

Do you *really* think that economists haven't considered that when they talk about the lump of labor fallacy? This is the equivalent of thinking you're smarter than physicists because you alone have realized that cows aren't frictionless and spherical.


SonOfHonour

Wtf? Do you think this question hasn't been asked before?


pcgamerwannabe

THey have to make international calls. They have to learn languages. They have to learn to dance like an American. They have to try American drinks. They have religious, legal, entertainment, educational, and other needs. They have to buy stuff for their new houses. They have kids that need stuff. They miss things from back home and start to look for imports of those things. They need to work out. They need to commute to work. They need haircuts and IT. They need to repair their phones. They need to watch the local news. All of this and more. Places with a large influx of immigrants often have growing businesses for a reason.


thisispoopoopeepee

I thought labor inputs have diminish returns?


lnslnsu

Immigrants are much more likely to start new businesses than nonimmigrants.


Erdelesk

Isn't that because of the selection bias induced by the current immigration laws?


tutetibiimperes

There may be some of that, but there’s also the fact that many will see opportunities in unexploited services aimed at their own communities. Restaurants/bars, small grocery stores, bus lines, taxi services, etc that are designed to serve the members of their own community started by people who understand the language and the culture are pretty common.


Lazyrel

Depends on capital, there's loads spare right now and it's really cheap (historically so)


coke_and_coffee

This being a fallacy is dependent on the assumption that new sources of labor have similar wage demands and similar consumption habits. That may not necessarily be true…


J-Fred-Mugging

Yeah the always-made claim "immigrants increase demand" is like... technically true but not true in any way that matters. From the perspective of *current residents*, the question is whether the new laborers will be more or less productive than the current labor force. If more: the standard of living for everyone will rise. If less: the standard of living will fall. This is not at all a difficult concept even if it can be politically unpleasant.


antonio_bananas21

Is that true long term? Simultaneously having higher birthrates and their children having a higher likelihood of upward mobility still means the long term trajectory is positive right?


coke_and_coffee

Of course. One salient example is the fact that something like the H1B Visa program requires firms to pay wages equal to what they pay similar American workers. Why have this stipulation if immigration doesn't actually lower wages? It's quite obvious that workers desperate to immigrate will be willing to accept lower than market wages. Anyone denying this effect is denying reality to fall in line with their ideology.


EvidenceBasedOnly

How is this upvoted? It's just straight up untrue. If they are less productive than the current labor force then they will get paid less and therefore consume less, they won't somehow make life worse for existing laborers.


J-Fred-Mugging

You're mistaken in two ways. 1) we have redistribution mechanics and shared services. Approximately 35-40% of the US economy is now in the public sector. The per capita amount of that sector is set by aggregate productivity 2) new workers compete with existing workers. Through the price effect, wages for low-skill labor in a high-productivity economy is set in part by the ratio of high to low skill workers. Increasing the supply of low skilled laborers decreases that ratio and lowers wages for low-skill labor


EvidenceBasedOnly

https://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/low-skilled-immigrants/


J-Fred-Mugging

Yes, that corroborates what I’ve said. But even if a survey didn’t agree with me, it doesn’t really matter: this is basic macroeconomic economic theory. You can pull down your Econ 102 textbook and work through the problem sets to double check if you’d like.


EvidenceBasedOnly

Bruh what. So you’re just straight up going full bad faith now? The poll straight up says that the average American is better off with a large amount of low immigrants entering.


J-Fred-Mugging

“Better off” is an immeasureable, moral judgment. I have no opinion on that question and you can feel free to come to any conclusion you like. “Wage level” on the other hand (the second question), is a measureable, economic value and the survey agrees with what I’ve written, which is a good thing, because it’s an economic truth.


Knee3000

IS THIS ANTI-IMMIGRANT SENTIMENT IN r/NEOLIBERAL? User, we want 1,000,000,000 Americans. Why are you like this? America is better off with more “low immigrants” because America is better off with more people in general.


JeromePowellAdmirer

Well yes, but just accepting in more immigrants doesn't do anything to the "worker shortage" unless they are disproportionately skewed towards being in the same careers that most need workers.


Khar-Selim

the dark side of the 'no they won't just steal our jobs' argument lol


[deleted]

[удалено]


Typical_Athlete

I thought labor shortages increase wages because employers have to attract new workers?


whales171

At a certain point the job goes away. There is only so much surplus that shining shoes can generate. Same applies to fast food, Walmart, etc.


[deleted]

Aren't there also shortages in skilled labour in the US at the moment? I'm a software engineer working in a US tech firm and I would move to the US in a heartbeat if I was able to, just for the better pay + more interesting work. As it stands I will have to wait a minimum of 18 months to have a shot at a US visa, and then only if my company wants me to transfer there


JeromePowellAdmirer

Don't tell /r/cscareerquestions, I'm sure they'll like you as a specific example but talk about international software workers in the abstract and they all fly to the right of Trump


[deleted]

Oh yeah the lump of labour fallacy is very strong on that subreddit. I find it strange because when I look at jobs in the US there are so many SE roles that pay well from the starter level compared to over here and it seems like interesting startups are cropping up all over the place


TheCarnalStatist

Many of their bosses are immigrants too. The relationship seems lost on them


Erdelesk

They are basically NIMBYs of the labor market.


JeromePowellAdmirer

We had all the startups at the beginning for some reason, possibly related to government investment on internet and general technology stuff, and then it snowballed from there. What CSCQ doesn't realize is the role of immigration in growing the industry. There's no Sergey or Bezos without some "scary foreigner" immigrating at some point and there's a lot more examples like that


[deleted]

Whats sad for me is that you can picture the exact kind of immigrant these people fear. They probably have nightmares about hordes of south Asian swarming over the border and taking their juicy paycheques. Im Irish so my experience in America is people telling me how much they love my accent and how their great grandparent came from Cork or wherever while buying me drinks, so I feel like I wouldn't be seen as a scary foreigner despite the fact that the immigrants people fear in tech have the same goals and desires in life that I do


Cyberhwk

It's not Lump of Labor, it's plainly wanting inflated salaries.


Tyhgujgt

This is just so stupid, more IT specialists > more projects > more IT specialists needed. One senior dev creates opportunities for sales, 2 juniors, managers and sre


numba1mrdata

>I'm a software engineer working in a US tech firm A software engineer?? On reddit? I'm shocked I tell you, shocked!


senpai_stanhope

Currently studying to become a software engineer in about 5 years, and yeah from what I've read the us salaries are way better, even before taxes. But immigration seems like a massive hassle and i do very much enjoy living with good urban planning(walk-/bikability and public transport)


[deleted]

Yeah these are all pretty valid concerns. There are still good jobs that pay well in Europe/Asia in fun and exciting cities, but they will pay less. Not sure where you're looking but I have worked in both Europe and Asia so I can give you some recommendations about cities.


greenelf

Someone’s an idiot but not you Let. Them. In. ✊


davidjricardo

It's the virus, stupid.


Erdelesk

Virus is higher in the US though.


interlockingny

… when compared to?


Erdelesk

Outside US.


interlockingny

Great answer!


Erdelesk

ye.


hillarygoodtho

Welcome to the deep state, soldier


Cooper1241

I know the dominos I work at has a worker shortage


qunow

This is like NIMBY against more housing supply. Housing shortage and unbalanced demand = Rapid rise in housing price By the same formula, those who are against immigration believe that, Worker shortage and unbalanced demand for workers would → rise in workers salary and benefits


PublikSkoolGradU8

I enjoy this topic so much because of what it reveals about people. Insert popcorn emoji.


purple112

No, that’s the right answer


tangsan27

A lot of the comments here seem different from our usual open borders posts. Maybe the succ invasion really is happening.


antonio_bananas21

I moved to Texas a decade ago from a shithole rural Midwest town. I was visiting and saw my aunt at Wal Mart (she works there). Same conversation she says: I could never live in Texas, too many Mexicans And We're short staffed, I don't know why because we're paying $16/hour (which goes a long way when rent is like $550 and houses are in the low $100s). People do not put the two together because of racism.


Photon_in_a_Foxhole

That upsets nativists like Sanders and Biden though


GuruKid87

Yes I think given the choice between labor wage increase and more immigration they prefer the former.


neolthrowaway

Labor NIMBYs 🤮


Infernalism

There's no worker shortage. There's a shortage of jobs that pay enough to entice workers into signing up.


whycantweebefriendz

Actually we do have that AND a worker shortage. We have five million less jobs filled than we did in February 2020, and we have 10 million jobs that need workers. This means we have 5 million new jobs, and not really anyone to fill them. We have a labor shortage.


jadoth

We have more openings then we have workers. whether we have a shortage, in other words whether this situation is undesirable, is a not so clear cut. I would argue that having more openings than people able to fill those openings is good, or at least better than the opposite at the same magnitude.


reptillianssdidcovid

How many of those are full time, pay a living wage, have reasonable turnover rates, and are real spots that need filling right now not companies that want to have a pool of potential workers? The way wages go up is labor shortages force employers to compete for labor and work to entice them. If the government steps in to solve the shortage first than wages and conditions will never improve.


TheRverseApacheMastr

“The way wages go up is labor shortages force employers to compete for labor and work to entice them.” This is untrue, in the long run. A firm cannot pay its employees more than the value that those employees create. This is why wages, in the long run, are dependent on worker factor productivity. “If the government steps in to solve the shortage first than wages and conditions will never improve.“ Is removing an arbitrary ban on which nationalities a firm can hire from really ‘government’ intervention?


Archivist_of_Lewds

Rofl. So the dramatic increase in productivity in the last 20 years and stagnant wages are fake news?


SounderTID

> stagnant wages are fake news? Somewhat. Usually that narrative is that real wages are stagnant (vs. nominal wages) A big part of inflation targeting when it started in New Zealand was a way to get unions to accept that they were actually going to get a handle on price stability.


Archivist_of_Lewds

My point is the monumental increase in productivity has in no way resulted in wage growth.


SounderTID

The difference between nominal wage growth and real wage growth is important. Some of the higher nominal wages goes to higher prices and some goes to more/better products and services consumed by lower wage families. Additionally whether we're looking at the wages for individual families vs. wages in aggregate. People are generally paid more the more they gain experience, job skills and negotiating skills. The problem identified when people were going for inflation targeting was a "wage-price spiral" where workers' gains were going nowhere except into higher prices. A real issue for people on fixed incomes that don't have effective cost of living adjustments. The lower we go in the socio-economic spectrum, the more families have a higher marginal propensity to consume. Their gains in wages are eaten by higher cost of living, but here's the thing, the stuff they're buying is also changing. Even if a family is the USA is living paycheck to paycheck, the collection of services and goods they're purchasing isn't static. There does continue to be some social mobility and some incremental changes in standards of living. Even if some of those, like housing standards in some localized areas, may be receding to smaller places with longer/more costly commutes.


TheRverseApacheMastr

“stagnant wages are fake news?” Not fake news, but certainly misleading. Fake news of omission. While employees *wages* have have not grown at the same rate as productivity, employee *compensation* has not experienced the same decoupling. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/09/25/us/politics/wage-growth-benefits.amp.html


Anlarb

> employee compensation has not experienced the same decoupling. Ah yes, being paid with token access to our bloated healthcare system makes it all worthwhile. Have you heard the one about the million rubble potato? Is true, everyone in mother russia is millionaire. How you ask? They are paid in the best potatoes.


TheRverseApacheMastr

I’m not about to defend the American health system holistically (and this feels like a red herring in relation to immigration), but outcomes for the insured are quite good, in America, right? The issue is access to the American healthcare system.


Anlarb

> outcomes for the insured are quite good, in America, right? No, we're stragglers. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-age-adjusted-mortality-rate-for-diseases-of-the-circulatory-system-per-100000-population-1980-2017 > The issue is access to the American healthcare system. Everyone has access, its wildly overpriced and ineffective.


TheRverseApacheMastr

Fair enough, when you’re right, you’re right.


TheRverseApacheMastr

“ being paid with token access to our bloated healthcare system” Um, the issue with American healthcare *is* the access. Outcomes in the American healthcare system are quite good, for the insured, like among the best in the world.


Anlarb

Great, you have access to buy a mansion, doesn't mean you can afford it. Medical expenses are still the #1 cause of bankruptcy, even after the ppaca, and that is despite those people having insurance. Just because a foreign king comes here doesn't mean that you get the level of care that they get.


Infernalism

Where did the laborers go, exactly?


whycantweebefriendz

Well 5 million of them aren’t gonna be enticed into shitty jobs and 5 million of them don’t live here yet


TaxCommonsNotIncome

May I introduce you to population pyramids and demographic shift


Infernalism

You're suggesting that we've had a significant demographic shift in the last 2 years to the point where there are millions of jobs going unfilled?


TaxCommonsNotIncome

No, moreso that acute distortions of labour supply are magnified by the increasing stress of demographic shift. I'd be curious as well to see how many older folks retired during COVID when compared to a typical period of time in the past. I'd hypothesize that people would be more inclined but I don't feel like dooming too hard about demographic shift.


Infernalism

> I'd be curious as well to see how many older folks retired during COVID when compared to a typical period of time in the past. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we found that millions of people dropped entirely out of the job market due to Covid.


Ritz527

Between COVID deaths and people choosing 2020 to retire due to COVID I can see us losing a few million workers. I also suspect that due to the way some work became scarce that folks began looking for jobs outside of their typical wheel house and are gainfully employed in other sectors. If you were a waiter and they had to cut back on staff, wouldn't you find a new job? Why would you leave it now just because we have vaccines and the country is starting to open up?


captmonkey

That and the restaurant industry basically shut down for a few months last year. People went to find other work that wasn't so dependent on how COVID was going, especially work where they didn't have to put up with rabid anti-mask/anti-vax customers who are going to put them and their loved ones at risk. And work from home became more available. And daycares and schools became less reliable, so many parents (disproportionately women) have started staying at home to take care of their kids instead. So, there's a lot of factors going on here leading people to not be looking for work.


the_colorful_lights

A lot of them are parents, mainly women, who’s kids haven’t been in school because of lock downs. They don’t have other child care options because those also shut down, are too scarce anyway, and too expensive. As those lockdowns go away, those parents will be better able to return to the workforce.


purple112

If we let people in that want to come here we wouldn’t have that problem


[deleted]

boohoo, there are a lot of guatemalans and venezuelans who would be happy coming to the u.s and working $8 an hour, you're not entitled to $15 for being born in america cope cope cope


AMagicalKittyCat

You know higher min wage applies to immigrants too right


neolthrowaway

Right? It's so weird when people say that immigrants will be exploited when they are subjected to the same minimum wage laws. Just. Let. Them. In.


ddit12

The majority don’t have a legitimate asylum or refugee claim. They will then be here illegally and no right to work. They will work for a restaurant that looks the other way as a bus boy, and maybe get min wage.


neolthrowaway

Uhhh, I am advocating for Legalizing migration and freedom of movement. So that records can be kept and laws can be enforced and no one has to be illegal.


centristxd

These people do not care about fair wages. They only care about corporate profits


Derryn

I mean immigrants from Guatemala and Venezuela who come here shouldn’t be earning just 8 dollars an hour either.


nevertulsi

Many would be happy to. The question isn't should they get $15 or $8, but could they all get $15? Or will they actually not get any job and thus get 0?


jadoth

If an unskilled native worker is able to be profitably employed by a firm at 15, why would an unskilled immigrant worker not be able to be similarly employed.


neolthrowaway

Everyone is subjected to the same minimum wage laws.


Frat-TA-101

Because it’s not about morals to these people, it’s about what they can get away with.


nevertulsi

I don't own a business so them being paid more or less doesn't directly benefit me I'm saying it might help them more if the government didn't dictate wages


nevertulsi

Mandating $15 minimum wage will lead to less people being employed, native or not.


jadoth

I beg you, and so many people on this sub, to actually go and look at recent research papers around this topic. Yes in a econ 101 model that is what would happen, but the world is more complicated than an econ 101 model and empirical research suggests that a higher min wage would not have significant employment effects, in either direction, in the US.


HogtownHoedown

this, right here, unironically, is why neolib is still a toxic label


keep_calm_rocket_on

I shudder to think of the implications of opinions like these ever being mainstream enough to be noticed and ridiculed by everyone across the spectrum.


Infernalism

> boohoo, there are a lot of guatemalans and venezuelans who would be happy coming to the u.s and working $8 an hour, you're not entitled to $15 for being born in america cope cope cope lol nice pasta.


RobinReborn

But that's what a shortage is. What you're saying is like: >We don't have a gasoline shortage. We have a shortage of people willing to pay $10/gallon


unreliabletags

Why should all services be more expensive now than they were in 2019? And if they are, isn't that just inflation?


fleker2

A problem in my hometown too. Bus drivers are short even with a starting wage of 22/hr. Unemployment is also high. It's not just a matter of importing labor, but matching people who are unemployed with available work. Bus driving requires some amount of skill, so it's (slightly) more involved than just handing out visas.


vikinick

I literally went to get fast food for lunch around 3 pm today and the fast food place was closed because they didn't have enough people to work.


_-null-_

Have you considered that the people waiting at your border likely don't have the education and necessary qualifications to fill these job positions? There is also the argument that the current labor shortage is actually a good thing, since it is forcing a desirable correction in the labor market - higher wages and better working conditions in the service sector.


HurDeDerDeveloper

The current labor shortage is big problem for construction trades which pay well and offer training. The issue is that many Americans don’t want to go though training or work early hours. If unions were smart they would find a way to bring in immigrants as both workers and new members.


GuruKid87

Yeah the shortages I’ve seen are: retail, truck/bus drivers and construction. I think we could get folks up to speed very quickly there


AsleepConcentrate2

Bus drivers are a huge shortage. I work with a lot of transit agencies and they’re all hurting for more drivers. Only problem is you do need some good English to do the job.


GuruKid87

Good point. I think you could do a special visa for drivers and have some requirements or training.


socialistrob

Some of these jobs are also relatively low skill and don't even require English fluency. A line cook in a restaurant doesn't need to have perfect English skills or a college degree to perform their job well and it would help address the labor shortage.


GuruKid87

Non-English fluent immigrants are already a big chunk of kitchen staff. And construction workers.


neolthrowaway

If they can't get the job, then what's the problem? if they can get the job, then fuck the rent seekers.


ILikeTalkingToMyself

There's plenty of openings even in minimal-skill positions that any refugee could do


TheCarnalStatist

>There is also the argument that the current labor shortage is actually a good thing, since it is forcing a desirable correction in the labor market - higher wages and better working conditions in the service sector. This entire mentality is nimyism but with jobs.


_-null-_

Yes. But what else can you do when you have such labour laws, low unionization and no tradition of corporatism. The people want a higher standard of living and they WILL shit on others in order to achieve it. No one likes to share.


TheCarnalStatist

The same thing we're doing with housing Liberalize markets and tell the folks with incumbency advantage that they aren't allowed hoard opportunity.


_-null-_

Yeah that would go towards solving the labour shortage but won't help the issue of income inequality which is widely perceived as wage stagnation. And there are few alternative solutions since even the push for a higher federal minimum wage failed.


neolthrowaway

It will definitely go towards solving global income inequality.


NotAnotherDecoy

Ah, so there will be disenfranchisement, just not in your backyard.


dummymcdumbface

But then they would be stealing our jobs


neolthrowaway

People saying this unironically in different words in this thread.


no_worms

kinda surprised to see people saying here that allowing immigrants in doesn't effect labor shortages, even if those labor shortages are for manual labor jobs that those immigrants can easily fill. I'm not bringing any evidence here, just saying that's VERY intuitive. could somebody explain in detail, maybe even with data, why this is the case?


neolthrowaway

Read the sidebar entry on open borders.


fishlord05

No you are right. It’s obvious. People are just blinded stupid by their racism.


Wonderful_School2789

But then we would have 2 taco trucks on every corner


BakerNowitzki

This sounds like the liberal version of "there's more vacant houses in America than homeless people"


neolthrowaway

Except the vacant houses are capable of moving to where the homeless people are if we just let them.


Diffendooferday

But they'll take our jerbs! It's replacement theory I tells ya!


lurreal

Yes, but also the US doesn't have a worker shortage. The US has an abundance of companies too bitchy to pay properly.


jadoth

And too accustomed to offloading the cost of training onto the public or individuals. If you need truckers so bad, you should be willing to pay peoples way through getting their CDL. The government should seek to support the education and productivity of the country, but at the end of the day if the workers a company needs don't exist, the company needs to spend the money to create them, not bully the government into creating the exact workers they need for them.


RigidWeather

Most trucking companies do offer paid CDL training, or at least a full training reimbursement. Plus it pays $50k/yr in the first year, and rapidly goes up to 70k+. Still a shortage of truckers.


lurreal

>And too accustomed to offloading the cost of training onto the public or individuals Hit the nail on the head. Training on the job used to be acceptable, normal. It should be.


[deleted]

I'm sure this will look great for politics /s


LawTim

We need skilled labor, they should ease restrictions with Europe and stop harrassing work visa applicants


neolthrowaway

There's skilled labour available all over the world. Not just Europe.


GuruKid87

Sure that too. But there’s an acute shortage of truck/bus drivers. Mass. Governor called in the state guard to drive school buses!


LawTim

Very true, I've run into that, it's impossible to get those folks in in general but you would think now it would result in some common sense. Technically H2B visas might be a good fit but their seasonal with two applications periods per year AND numerically capped. Absolute clown show


centristxd

There isn’t a worker shortage there is a fair wage shortage. “NOBODY WANTS TO WORK ANYMORE” for poverty tier wages. This is ultimately why I do not take this sub seriously.


tutetibiimperes

I feel like a lot of people fleeing abject poverty and gang violence in Honduras would be happy to work for $10/hour at Burger King.


FDMGROUPORNAH

so u basically admit that we need to import desperate people from literally one of the poorest regions in the world because they’re the only places that would tolerate such awful working and living conditions ? nah this brand of liberalism is disgusting


neolthrowaway

Awful working and living conditions according to whom?


TheRverseApacheMastr

“we need to import desperate people from literally one of the poorest regions in the world” No, we want to allow people to work in the US of their own free volition.


A_Character_Defined

It's better than the brand of "liberalism" that seeks to keep desperate people from escaping their desperate situations. And for some reason it's never white people you want to keep out 🤔


vodkaandponies

And who caused those desperate situations in the first place?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America


FDMGROUPORNAH

bro i’m literally hispanic my parents are working class mexicans my point is that lots of older immigrants also came here decades ago and now are seeing increasing labor power ! they’re the ones who work these awful and low paying service jobs and who are abused because they’re easily replaced . Is bringing in a new generation of immigrants living in poverty really the best we can do ? i want immigration but i don’t want it just so we can satisfy the whims of the worst employers America has to offer ! That’s basically admitting that we have industries that rely on exploiting the desperation of immigrants!


A_Character_Defined

So you personally benefitted from the thing you're arguing against. "Fuck you, got mine."


FDMGROUPORNAH

no, i’m against the motive of bringing them here to fill in our dead end jobs and make it so employers have no incentive to improve those jobs - basically have an under class of Central Americans . i want them to come to live a good life , not a life just better than the worst countries in the world .


reptillianssdidcovid

So US citizens should be more exploitable or get fucked?


centristxd

Thats not my problem. Sob story propaganda does work on me. $10 is still exploitation


tutetibiimperes

$10 is well above minimum wage in many places. It’s not a lot of money strictly speaking, but it still affords a much higher quality of life than someone who’s used to living in a corrugated metal shed without access to clean water or indoor plumbing has previously experienced.


neolthrowaway

Considering $10 an hour wage exploitation IS sob story propaganda. Fucking burgers.


ChickeNES

Boohoo


chinomaster182

So many people willing to risk everything to earn whatever they can get. Of course it doesn't make sense to earn as little as possible if you are a natural born US citizen, but don't take opportunities away from others. Ask someone else if they're open to work for slave wages.


SaltySaladNoLikeMods

https://i.imgur.com/N7B4n0Mh.jpg


reptillianssdidcovid

Black workers were nearly twice as likely to be unemployed as white workers across the country in 2021Q1. There's a more appropriate version of this sign but I wouldn't be allowed to post it.


centristxd

I really don’t understand that image but ok


Possum_In_A_Suitcase

I get the feeling there's a lot you don't understand.


ChickeNES

😂


ReadyForASpaceJam

Define "poverty tier wage."


jadoth

But do we have a labor shortage? Or is that just a phrase capital owners use to complain about having to buy labor in a competitive labor market? Edit :Many people in this sub are so blind when it comes to this topic. If you dislike racism and nativism, you cant then turn around and advocate for policies that pit the intrests of current citizens against immigrants. That is a large part of how those sentiments gain strength. A competitive labor market where firms can not fill all their roles is good. it means people are filtered up into the most productive use of their labor possible. By all means we should be welcoming immigrants, but we should not be using them as a means of cheap labor. They should be treated as people first, not resources. We should let them in, but at the same time pursue policies that keep the labor market tight.


neolthrowaway

The people who will be migrating will be far happier. Why do you want to sacrifice that so that the your personal arbitrary standards are met? People's subjective opinion aside, there's not an objective reason why we should not favor a substantial increase in quality of life of all the people looking to migrate.


forceofarms

the funny thing is that you don't have to pick, because the real cause of wage stagnation is monosopny power, which can be broken by some of the more radical progressive proposals (2k+ a month) or by a massive federal jobs program with a 15/hr minimum wage and fast hiring turnaround.


melhor_em_coreano

> By all means we should be welcoming immigrants, but 😐 > We should let them in, but 😐😐


melhor_em_coreano

I'm sure consumers are fine with not having access to good and services as long as it owns the capital owners


Frafabowa

just take less of a profit margin lol


centristxd

Exactly these people in this thread really want to be served by minimum wage workers. I never understood the people who have a problem with service workers having a minimum wage


jadoth

Or just innovate, then you can take the same profit margin.


TheRverseApacheMastr

“A competitive labor market where firms can not fill all their roles is good.“ A labor market in which firms are prohibited from hiring workers, exclusively because of those workers’ national origin, is not a competitive labor market.


thisispoopoopeepee

I agree one way to solve the ballooning cost of labor is to allow in more immigrants.


FDMGROUPORNAH

man no wonder neoliberals have such a bad rep


neolthrowaway

Why do you hate the global poor?


keep_calm_rocket_on

If these immigrants are so valuable and you support taking them away from their countries, aren’t you the one who hates the global poor? I guess only Americans deserve cheap labor and low prices, not Hondurans or Nicaraguans…


neolthrowaway

No. Look up remittances and the stats. Allowing freedom of movement just lets people benefit from all the unrealized potential difference. You know how potential difference works in electric circuits, right? Allowing current to flow between the points of potential difference gets you energy.


thisispoopoopeepee

Why do you hate the global poor?


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sigmaluckynine

Just wanted to share my own two cents here. I feel in the short term this would solve the low skill labour shortage and then we can solve for the future problems later through either innovation or something else. As a Canadian, we have the same problems here with labour shortage, especially soon. The problem is our immigration program is broken where we value educated immigrants but that's a mismatch of the situation on hand


Tabasco_Liberal

Wouldn’t this depress wages though? The longer businesses go without finding workers the more they’ll relent and see wages. I support open borders but it’s a fact worth considering.


ILikeTalkingToMyself

It doesn't depress wages at the economy-wide level or at the long-run level, but in the short run it can depress wages in some local areas or some industries. At the economy-wide level the additional spending from the new workers more than offsets the diminished wages, and the economy produces new income via productivity increases from [scale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale). In the long run workers also shift around, which restores equilibrium differences in wages between industries.


steamsport

Idk about that one. If short term is 5 or so years. Then ya otherwise my local area including statewide has had shit wages starting at ten for years. They only just now had it reach 13 and I honestly believe it is because of the worker shortage. Cost of living is 15n hr in my area and has been for year


ILikeTalkingToMyself

Where do you live? If you don't mind me asking


steamsport

Um isn’t that the opposite of what workers right now? This shortage is increasing paychecks