By - killHACKS
Really, all a "financial literacy workshop" is realistically going to do is teach you *exactly* how screwed you are, when you realize that, no, you really *can't* budget your way out of poverty.
Agree, but also financial literacy is a lacking skill in America. Debt is almost always the answer if your plan on buying anything with at least one comma in the price and most financially literate people will tell you not to take on debt.
Financial literacy should teach you to recognize a scam.
Capitalism: no not like that
It sure as shit is. I went to a very good high school and graduated college and then it took me about another 5 years to do my own research to figure out why I had a good paying job but no money.
Ngl best class I ever took in high school was “advanced algebra w/Financial applications” which was a fancy way of saying “this is a class that will teach you real life skills so you can manage your money properly” learned about filing my own taxes, doing W2s, applying for loans and how to tell if you’re being screwed by a lender or not, etc. No other class I have ever taken has prepared me as well as that one class I took
Have to disagree with you there because there is good debt and bad debt. The entire business world works on debt basically. A house which goes up in value is worth getting into debt for if you can afford repayments. Buying an expensive car or phone which decreases in value is less smart and could be classed as bad debt. Same as credit card debt as it'll typically have much higher interest rate
If your interest rate is less than you’re going to get on investments then it’s best to take the debt.
That’s correct in theory but does not account for unexpected changes in income and also requires a lot of financial discipline that most people just lack.
Situationally yes, but realistically the only time it makes sense to take on debt is when interest is 0%. Debt compounds over time just like investing does. The difference is most investments don’t earn you a 15+% return annually, if you average at 8% returns long term on investing you’re doing alright. How many credit cards have an APR of 8% though? I haven’t seen one.
Only the most dire situations call for carrying a credit card balance. But credit cards aren’t the only kind of debt. My debt is certainly not 0% but in a year with inflation like this it might as well be.
> But credit cards aren’t the only kind of debt
Tell that to someone making $30/k a year with a subpar credit score
What? If you want a better credit score just use it to pay off the bill and pay the cards off every month. If you’re only making 30k a year you might find that the grace period makes it easier to pay on time.
Then you can qualify for auto and signature loans and stuff. If your score goes up but not enough. Just get a new card every six months and never use it. Use credit basically any time you don’t get charged a fee and pay it off right away. Try and open installment loans and pay those off right away, like payment plans.
I understand how you can build a credit rating over time even if its been seriously harmed, but during that process other forms of credit will be severely limited if available at all. I just think your blanket statement of "there are other forms of debt" ignores a lot of nuance in the way finance works atm, especially the way that it can distort poor and/or uneducated folks into a near-unmanageable situation before they even have the proper understanding of what is happening to them (see payday loans for a direct example or the student debt crises for a similar situation with a lot of parallels even if its not a 1:1 comparison). Financial Literacy is not encouraged to the poor in this country (I'm American if thats not obvious) primarily because it would limit one form of control. Furthermore, running a debt based economy where the majority of the citizenry need to take debt for an average standard of living drives power to the capitalist/aristocracy class, so even if theres all the credit in the world available, the sacrifice is autonomy, which is worth it to some but not to me.
The way credit reports are scored hints that nobody knows how they actually work. If you have damaged credit you could try asking someone who trusts you to make you an authorized cardholder on one of their larger cards. That’s a fast ticket to a high score. As far as the autonomy goes you never even need to take debt that exceeds your assets. Just build a score and enjoy the grace periods.
And what loss of autonomy? I’ve always told anyone who I didn’t want to pay to kiss my ass. I had no credit history until I figured out how my score is calculated. Like they didn’t even know where I lived.
I have nice rates on debt but I could do it again at any time. It would just wreck my score. By personality I’m a horrible person to lend to but I work out on paper according to the factors they’ve determined to be good predictors.
Rich people love taking on debt, I don't know that paying cash for everything is all that smart.
Debt is interesting the black and white approach to debt lacks nuance and erases the situations when debt is good. In high inflationary regimes like now people should be up to their eyeballs in debt especially with the super low interest rates because they can use that debt to purchase goods ,services, and assets now for cheaper than they could later when it is more expensive so they save money in the long run. But in environments where intrest rates outstrip inflation debt is too expensive and people should save for the goods services and assets they want to buy.
It comes down to being smart about debt and using it wisely but too many people are financially illiterate to know how to use the tools at their disposal properly. It's like putting an office worker in a factory, they're going to get their arms ripped off by a machine tool of some sort because they are unaware of the danger of using the tool improperly.
Rich people take on debt provided they can repay debts before they accrue interest. There is not a single wealthy person who would prefer taking on debt to paying for things straight out.
This isn't right. We obviously don't have the access to the same loans they do, but look into the financial situations of the ultra wealthy a bit more. They love taking out huge loans, not even for investments, just for spending on luxaries
Idk I’m not wealthy at all, but I still take on debt because I know I can pay it off before the interest would kick in. Hasn’t failed me yet
So... that’s a good thing, right? Realizing the way out is not your budget and instead how much you make...
making people realize this AND have the knowledge to do good things once they have a better wage...
So I see little downside: other than some despair, and plenty of upside with being efficient in improving your condition (spending more time looking for a better job than budgeting).
Financial literacy is one of two prongs (other being higher wage): it’s still needed.
> So... that’s a good thing, right? Realizing the way out is not your budget and instead how much you make...
In the sense that it helps you realize that the only way out of the system is to change or even destroy it, I guess. But my point was more that it's not going to achieve its ostensible goal of helping people out of their individual financial holes. Fomenting anticapitalism would be more of a side effect.
Agreed: not the intended effect... but more of a surprised pikachu face.
Employers: go get a financial education:
Employees learn the only way out of their hole is to switch jobs.
Employers: surprised pikachu face.
> Employers: go get a financial education: Employees learn the only way out of their hole is to switch jobs.
It does work that way sometimes, though. Few things pulled me as left as a business program going mask-off and me not liking the horrors on display.
As much as it would dismay my university to know that's the effect they had on me.
The most significant line item when figuring your budget on a minimum wage living is “income from other jobs “. As in you’re going to have to work about 80 hours per week to survive.
They should at a minimum teach you how not to dig a deeper hole, like using high interest credit cards, paying late fees, or using payday loans etc. Double check all your subscription services you don't use are not active (old gym memberships, old online subscriptions, etc). Look into public transportation vs owning cars, or buying used vs new etc.
Bad financials habits are learned and do need to be unlearned and you would be surprised how many friends I have that don't do just the above basics.
Yes you can. Myself, and many others have.
> Myself, and many others have.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
And exactly how do you budget your way out of fees for not having as much money in the bank? Or how do you budget your way around The boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness? Or the predatory level of interest forced on people with bad credit?
There was a lifeprotips post about financial literacy saving a guy's finances trending a week or two ago, the comments were a cesspool of people blaming the working poor for their situation. "All your problems will be solved by budgeting and not going into debt" sort of bullshit.
God damn avocado toast
I had a Starbucks three years ago and I still haven't recovered financially.
Nor should you. Just be glad we've made debtors prison technically illegal!
OMG did it taste like rich people? How did you afford such a treat? Did you take out a home equity loan?
Mortgaged my van down by the river
*Whistles* Daaaaang. How long did it take to pay back? Was it worth the taste? How many years do you think it will take you to save up enough to buy another one?
Probably in a couple of years. I've got this new side hustle collecting recyclable cans out of dumpsters.
Sounds like a bunch of boomers and Gen Xers whose generational wealth boosted them through college and into a comfortable 50 K a year position
Yeah it was basically a bunch of "I tightened my belt for a few years to pay off student loans/mortgage so why can't you" kind of thing. Super classist and privileged but of course they freak out when you call them out on it.
I mean I started at a 63k Canadian position but I payed 60 percent of my income just to rent. Now I pay 50 percent at 76k!
> Now I pay 50 percent at 76k!
This is normal.
Not being able to save any money is normal? 50 percent is just rent. Then there's utilities, parking, internet and cell phone plan, insurance. Etc
It was a sarcastic comment.
Actually my monthly net is 3700. My gross salary is 76!
"I mean, do you REALLY need that much insulin?"
Lol sure that 30 rack I bought once a month was going to let me build a base. It is the same stupid ass Sam Vimes cliche. It is true but cliche. Your car is constantly breaking down. I fucking walked back 5 miles from work everyday for 3 months. I literally couldn't afford the healthcare they provided. Shit just little dumb shit happens which costs money you don't have. Some asshole bumps into your pocket with a wood box and fucks your phone. Sure the company pays for it...2 months down the line but you get hit with fees because guess what? You need a phone to function and have to overdraft your account.
Took a required financial literacy class once. The teacher embarrassed me by asking me what I spend my money on in front of the class and I said "nothing", at the time I was unemployed and homeless. She thought I was exaggerating and asked, no seriously. I told her I don't buy anything because I have no money. Everyone was exchanging glances like, "has this financial literacy teacher seriously never met a homeless person in their class before?"
Later we were talking about budgeting. I asked, "What do we do if we've cut everything possible from the budget but we still can't afford food?" She says you have to find something else to cut. I say again, what if you ALREADY cut everything possible? Finally she pauses and says... "I don't know."
I came across the concept of the 'deficit model' recently and now I see it everywhere in our culture and society.
*A perspective which attributes failures such as lack of achievement or success in gaining employment to a personal lack of effort or deficiency in the individual, rather than to failures or limitations of the education and training system or to prevalent socio‐economic trends.*
Our brains are hard-wired to blame the individual rather than the system.
I know the same concept as the "just world fallacy," and that's exactly it. We're told our struggles are the cause of our own shortcomings and mistakes, and traditional financial literacy plays into that perfectly.
I'd disagree with your use of the term "hard-wired" though. Humans are social, communal, and cooperative by default. The hyper-individualist society we now have in the west is one hundred percent propaganda and brainwashing.
Just don't feed your kids bro
My church tried this, a friend joined a MLM that tried this ( and wanted to sell us life insurance), my school tried this, my parents tried with a home study course... I have taken so many financial literacy classes. And every one said the same thing, budget and save/invest the extra. Which does not help at all when your fixed expenses are just barely covered by your income and something extra pops up.
In our house we have autism, anxiety, depression, and a bit of bipolar. We cannot get another job without going completely batshit insane and having a mental breakdown. We know this, because we tried.
Having all of these very well meaning people try to tell us the same thing, and then finish it off by saying that if we can’t reduce our expenses we need to increase our income, makes me want to scream. You think that we would be constantly hovering on the edge of debt if we had any choice?
Much love dude, as someone with cptsd, ptsd and clinical depression, the reality of holding down a job without losing ones shit is so real.
the Dave Ramsey stuff is pretty funny tbh. He's like get a pizza job and deliver non stop, then do some door dash on the side. Then maybe do some night classes at your community college full time too lol. I don't see how people do 2 jobs tbh. I think the cause of a lot of depression for me is just the fact i hate working for a lot of these aholes for 8 hours a day while i barely get any income from that job. I know i was unemployed for a bit in my 20s and had no anxiety at all. as soon as i went to work boom, the feeling was worse than what i felt in school :)
this is dave when an actual real world situation happens, not just some boomer/gen x who spends to much money making 200k and can easily cut back overconsumption.
“Just find a way to make more money!!” That’s not tone deaf at all. 😬
I'm normally critical of Dave, mainly from catching his radio show at night. This segment was better than his normal, go get a better job, advice. I heard three things I agree with in this. First was to invest in himself by learning new things. Second was to get a financial cushion so big events become small events. Third, and I think is the most important, and Dave mentioned it at the end and didn't give it enough weight, to find more successful people and learn from them. Hanging around with the same people making the same mistakes as you will not get you anywhere besides where you already are. I wasn't going anywhere until I started to change who I spent time with.
I linked it because it's one of the few times I've seen Dave realize how little 13.50/hr is. It's not like this guy is lazy or anything, he simply doesn't make enough to live at a wage some consider "good" in a very low cost of living area. Sure, invest in yourself, but he's a single dad being told to do MORE work hours on top of his regular job while relying on family to be free babysitting services. So how many hours should he dedicate to "pulling himself up by his bootstraps?
Surrounding himself with better people, maybe, but when? between the full time job, parental duties, second part time job and his time to better himself?
Dave mentioned the most important, increasing his wages. If his job paid an extra $6.25 an hour more he's have that $1,000 Dave says he needs, his employer gets an employee who isn't going to leave and need to retrain someone, and he can skip the whole bootstraping The Pursuit of Happyness slog Dave thinks every person has to go through to "make it".
I think our criticisms of Dave are based on the same things. I was surprised when Dave actually took what the man was saying into account. For me, I changed the group of people I hung around with. I feel like it improved me as a person, and help develop my social skills in that area. I learned some humility and how to take criticism. Not all the new people I was around were nice. The new social skills helped me navigate work better and contributed to a couple promotions. Networking skills are an underrated talent. That's why I think Dave mentioning finding a mentor in the group of people he was already spending time with, church, was the most important. Getting a better job through networking happens much more than anyone would like to admit.
Employers are so short-sighted they'd rather spend extra money on turn-over instead of employee loyalty by giving long-time and loyal employees a bit more.
They'll say they'd rather have less turnover but in reality it's a lie.
Or he just shames poor people for being poor. "Just get a higher paying job."
Yeah, budget; that's all well and good. I took a personal finance class in college, a million years ago. They taught how to budget. I knew it was bunk then because it was outdated, assuming everyone was paid on salary and always had the same monthly income. There was nothing about unexpected variables like varying work hours, when your hours get cut unexpectedly, your rent goes up, gas goes up, etc etc etc. And nothing about student loan payments. (This was around 2002.)
Financial literacy saved my life, with that being said it is useless if you’re in this position.
The welfare safety net is also a trap. You cannot have a emergency fund. A $.50 raise can push your income up that you lose your benefits. No saving for school.
As used car values escalate because of pandemic shortages, some people will suddenly own a car that has a value greater than is permitted.
Yes, it's a safety net, but it won't help you escape poverty.
Because people want it to be. Too many people fear what will happen when people aren't forced to labor for someone else to survive.
I used welfare to escape poverty
I’m mean, both would be nice. But yeah, you can’t manage money you don’t have. So let’s start with getting them wages up!
You know I actually called one of those places once, my bank suggested it. After I lay out all my stuff she says, "you need to make more money". No shit
I paid someone to help me figure out my finances when I was working three jobs. Their advice was to rehome my pets and sell my car. Dumbest $50 I ever wasted. Like “oh yeah, lemme rehome my pets (who are emotional support animals) and sell my car so I can use my city’s shitty public transportation and increase my work day by 4+ hours a day, that’ll fix it”
Shoot for $25 I could tell you to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and get a 4th job. That would be at least equally helpful.
What it boils down to is you got to dial back on your Starbucks and Avocado toast, while keeping the heat off, and doing sleep studies, so you're still technically working while you sleep.
They were like “donate plasma to make extra cash and take up Uber or Lyft!” And I was like cool cool cool so sell my blood so I don’t have to sell my car? This is Fine and Normal.
Idk about you but I don't have a vehicle nice enough for Uber or Lyft lol. I'll be rolling up in my old, rusty 96' Chevy like, need a ride that may or may not get you where you need to go?
Yeah getting stabbed and drained of your plasma is totally normal. I mean capitalism is a bloodsucking parasite amiright?
Right??? I have a 2010 Kia that runs, vibrates if I go over 65, the bass only works in one speaker so the back left passenger has a WAY different listening experience, and it constantly smells like old French fries, but sure lemme pull up to someone in the middle of a major city and just pray that the pot holes don’t take me out again.
LMAO!!! Let's do it, see who gets the most turndowns by possible customers lol. Well the good news is those financial advisors you got gave us a bit of entertainment so I guess the $50 wasn't totally in vain.
You know what, that’s true. That crumb of seratonin is worth it.
Gotta look on the bright side, in those infinitesimal moments that it comes. Keeps the crazy away ya know?
Some parts of this year, it’s gotten really, really dark. So I made a list of everything worth staying alive for. Obviously, the big things matter most. But some silly, small ones lightened the mood enough for me to feel optimistic again. One of my favorites was “potato cheesy gordita crunches from Taco Bell”
Oooo, I like those rolled chicken tacos with that spicy ranch sauce. Wonder when they're gonna bring that back.
I feel ya on the dark times. Sometimes I imagine a hundred different ways to go. Only thing keeps me getting out of bed every day is the kids. Today is finally my 3rd day off in 27 days so I'm saying screw it and taking them to an indoor arcade and out to eat, because I'm going right back to work tomorrow and I'm second shift so I see the kids basically Sunday if I have one off.
I'm tired all the time, sometimes I cry on the way home from work and I just wonder if I'll survive. At least my credit card is about $4k from being paid off. 3 years ago I had about $15k in the hole so it's climbing. But my vehicle sucks and has that brake line held with tape, roof leaks, one bathroom is kaput, the other is leaking and warping in the floor, just had a new furnace out in last year for $3.5k and spent $5k on a new (used) car for my woman that still needs work.
Hopefully everyone somehow makes it through. I know alot of us are in the darkest days if our lives, maybe a light will shine through.
I read a post where someone who was unemployed and saving to buy a car was told to buy one ASAP or *now* by the unemployment office so they could have transportation to go to unpaid internships to get work experience. It was this subreddit or recruitinghell.
Just fucking pay people for the work experience if they are doing work.
I wana smack the fuck out of every boomer who has suggested putting myself on a budget. Bitch I've been on a budget since highschool.
Also if all the financial Dave Ramsey types had their advice followed the entire economy would fall, because nobody would buy that odd Starbucks, or take out meal, they would only buy ramen noodle and PBJ and never spend a dollar on entertainment… everything would crumble…. Which also doesn’t sound that bad
Also, Dave was teaching people not to buy a vehicle that cost more than $5,000, while working the program. Which now would, in my area, buy me something with 200,000+ miles, and already worn out.
I always did good buying cars under 10k… at 5k you started running into real risks. This year I bought my first new car because used cars are pretty much pointless. It’s an odd year but still.
If you're mechanically knowledgeable, you can get a reliable vehicle for less than $10k. None of my four wheeled vehicles have ever cost more than $4k and all have been solid for me. Older, basic trucks, compact trucks, vans, and simple sedan platforms for friends (like old Camrys/Corollas, Panther-platform Fords, GM "grandma cars" ie Buick Centurys, etc) made between the 90's and '08 tend to be more in the sweet spot for cheaper but still simple enough to fix and fairly reliable, etc. The biggest thing to watch for in general with that era of used cars, IME, is auto trans usually begin to wear out around 140k miles. YMMV.
That said, unless you're a seriously knowledgeable mechanic (I'm not, just moderate/shade tree) going through the dry runs necessary to sort the wheat from the chaff in the used car market takes a lot of time. Time being something that people who need a sub $5k car usually don't have.
That's why I've seen a lot of decent, older cars in good shape with moderate mileage go to middle class and above folks, people who can afford to spend a weekend browsing Craigslist and driving around to check out a car, then say no if the seller is lying about the car, etc. I have been lucky in that I've had the time to go out and look at the vehicles I've bought so I could say "no" when someone was trying to screw me over.
Of course, now that $2-3k range would be around $5-6k private party given the spike in vehicle prices, but still. Under $10k and dependable is quite possible, it just takes time that most people who need such vehicles don't have.
I definitely agree. My first car cost 1500, my second car cost 3500. Just normal sedans, an old camry and an old mazda 3. Actuarial tables said that corollas and camrys last the longest, followed by mazda 3. I've got like 190k miles on it and I get less trouble than my brother does at 120k miles with a jeep. But, I fear than next time it'll cost more like 7k for a cheap used car with the shortages.
Yeah, I think it can be a good strategy at least in some areas. Smaller Mazdas with manual trans always seem to be pretty good too, Miatas last forever- IME it's the automatic trans that let Mazdas down, I tend to recommend people go for a Toyota if they need an auto instead of a stick.
The only Jeeps I consider reliable from the 90's to now are the old AMC inline six motors, in XJ and ZJ Cherokees IIRC, with a preference to the manual trans models too (which ZJs basically didn't have). Their newer lineup just doesn't seem very well built, even the Wrangler, with its FCA-influenced parts and electrical system. Even then they're not exactly Toyota level but I've seen a few go to 200k+.
Personally I've driven an old-school Ford Ranger with a four cylinder and a stick, which I bought for less than $3k, to well over 200k miles with almost no problems. Extremely low COO on that vehicle and I put many thousands of miles on it. I'm sure an older Tacoma would have done similar.
But like you said, I think cars like that are going to become less $3k cars and more $7k cars as time goes on, especially given the crap long-term (150k+) reliability of many post 2010s models. I imagine it'll eventually resemble many other markets, where a simpler, easier to repair and cruder "old school" design will command a premium of its own versus newer, nicer, but more expensive to maintain and fix vehicles.
And honestly that small indulgence here and there isn't going to make or break the bank or make a difference.
I remember someone trying to give me financial pointers when I was making just above minimum wage. I don't remember who she was or why she was basically assigned to do this, but she was full of energy on how she was going to show me what I could cut out so I could basically start getting out of poverty. She didn't believe me at first when I told her I had my budget as bare bones as was possible. Cheapest rent I could get, utilities used as little as possible, etc. No extras of any kind. And if it wasn't a planned expense(carefully saved for over months), it wasn't happening, no matter how dire the need. I would just make a list, and if I could scrounge up the money needed, I'd get it done. I got good at diy for things that probably were never intended for improvising.
She took one look at my income and expenses. "Oh."
The only thing that fixed that situation was a job that paid more. Well, still working on the fixing part. Some things I couldn't take care of simply festered over time, and I'm still catching it up. Maybe by next year, everything will fully be in order.
especially in the workshop, they tell you that you need two jobs to balance your life lmao
It should be both honestly. Financial literacy should be taught to everyone in public school, starting as early as possible.
But I 100% agree, the priority is to eliminate poverty wages. Please can we start there?
When I was in 7th grade, our class did a project where we were allocated so much "money" a month. We could rent a seat in each classroom, with the back seats costing more in "rent." Then we had other expenses I can't remember. Many people could not get their checkbook to balance correctly. The teachers just told us we weren't doing it right and we didn't know what we were doing. Turns out the students bankers assigned to run the bank were embezzling money and forging checks from other students accounts. When the teachers finally audited the bankers, suddenly the project quietly went away and nobody got in trouble.
Little did I understand at that time, how realistic that project would be, compared to real life.
I had financial literacy classes in high school and all through the military. They were all horrible advice given out by a random boomer who pulled shit out of his ass.
I didn’t become remotely financially literate until I took business and economics classes in college and I didn’t understand my credit score until credit card points became a sort of internet fad.
I think financial literacy is important, but it's at most 1/4 of the equation. The other 3/4 being that people should be paid a living wage so they have something to budget with in the first place. The wealthy and semi-wealthy are simply out of touch.
Financial literacy is also important because in the absence of sensible financial literacy education are those cringe-y "entrepreneurship" inspo IG memes and "F.I.R.E." subreddits that try to sell you pie-in-the-sky schemes.
They will make it look they are helping, they will do anything but give a living wage. Pizza party?
remember when Visa tried to plan a budget that was completely nonviable without having two jobs ?
I remember one company trying to make a budget but then failing. They've put shit like $600/mo for 2 bedroom apt rent lmfao. All costs were as if they're from 40 years ago.
EVERY person who pushes the idea of "Dave Ramsey can get to help" and it's all about spending to much just need to know that it's all BS. EVEN DAVE knows this but rarely admits it. 95% of his people are over consuming white collar idiots who make $150k a year but spend $250k. Here is what happens when a regular working class person calls into his show: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnYvnvKie-s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnYvnvKie-s) \-- while he still goes "get a better job" and "work a second job" he at least understand the damn math. And worse, he understands this person is hard work. Hell, they have one of those semi skilled "trade" jobs the conservatives talk about all the time.
So yea, it's about lack of money in, not money out, for those at the very bottom.
I was made to take a financial literacy class and practice job interviews because I was receiving financial assistance. Thing was I was a single mom of 3 who just escaped an abusive relationship. I budgeted the money I did get to make sure my kids didn’t go without.
At the end of the class the person in charge told me by all accounts I was going everything right so they weren’t sure why I needed the class. I explained I was a single mom of very young children (had just given birth a few months prior) and the class was required. I already knew how to manage money. I just couldn’t make it appear out of thin air when fleeing for my life
This is the equivalent of giving a starving person a cookbook.
Yeah but some people really can use financial literacy classes tbh
Like people who are paying 20% interest on a credit card or car loan
Older People who like to blame laziness or financial illiteracy for poverty don't realize they grew up in a golden age of labor. In the 1800s and earlier people often worked 100+ hour weeks in fields or factories with no time off and no benefits and starting several decades ago the gap between minimum wage and the cost of living has been increasing making it harder on the workforce recently. Whereas for most of the 1900s people could afford to support a family of 5 off a single income, build home equity, and have plenty of free time.
Every century has some economic crisis at some point. Just because the great depression and ww2 happened it doesn't invalidate the fact the cost of living vs average wage especially property value has grown apart at exorbitant rates in the last 80 years. That coupled with the fact that the movement for the 40 hour week peaked in the 1900s tells me that yeah the golden age for labor was the 1900s. Of course if you can find some data that shows me otherwise and not just bullet points of two of the largest crises in the 19th century
Lol there's a fact
It is a fact that the postwar period was prosperous & a good time for America’s middle class. But my parents were born in 1907 and 1914. The stories they told about their younger days were hair-raising. Poverty, disease, and violence were endemic.
THEN came the Depression and the War. In short, they didn’t have shit, then they starved for ten years, then Dad got shot at for four years while Mom worried herself sick about him. So I guess they earned that postwar prosperity. But out of that whole period, only the years 1945 to 1975 were really good.
I mean I wasn't there its just as far as recorded labor conditions go they were really shitty through the 1800s because of the industrial revolution then hours and wages hit a good stride from the early 1900s up until ww1 and even after that. The world as a whole was a shitshow from the 1930s through the 1940s. Sometime between the war and the recession in the 1970s workers hit another peak, as far wages and hours go. It has been getting steadily worse for workers since probably the 1970s. Besides the Depression and the two Worlds Wars, from the standpoint of an average worker most of the 1900s wages and hours were better against living cost than the first 21 years of this century or the most of the 1800s
I don’t need to better understand how broke I am, I need to be ***less broke***
Really it's insulting like they will say things "buy generic not name brand it's cheaper" like no duh you think people were too dumb to figure that one their broke and underpaid not stupid
4 days a week, 10 hours a day, 3 days off, maximum wage.
That sounds like something the poors say 😅
Idk about American wages but in Australia some food outlets completely insult some worker for example my friend was being paid $12 and had $5 per $12 taxed which is atrocious. I work at a supermarket and earn $22 p/h
That doesn't add up, $12/hr is below minimum wage in Australia, so your friend wouldn't be paying taxes as it would have to be under the table. Minimum wage here is now over $20 an hour afaik. Sounds like their dodgy boss is pulling some extra dodgy shit.
It works like pay as you go tax he will get all the money back with a tax return but for the mean time he isn’t making a suitable amount
Situation matters a lot. Some of my friends didn't get their 1st car for free from their parents. Their parents didn't
This is a bad take. A financial literacy workshop will not cure poverty, but calling it immoral is ludicrous. At worst, it's a well-meaning waste of time. But even if someone can't cut any of their expenses, it allows them to know what would need to change to meet their goals (e.g. "I would need to increase my income by this much to retire in this many years with this amount of expenses.") At least someone would know why something would need to change, and by how much.
Helping someone recognize why something is a problem generally contributes to its solution.
Didn't McDonald's do something like this at one point? They developed a budget plan for their workers, but they assumed they were working two jobs or something?
Yeah they did. And this fuck up too:
Also if khan academy is free and I can learn to code on YouTube, financial literacy classes are already freely available. Maybe pay people to do them if they're so good.
We recommend Kahn Academy where I work, when people ask about improving their skills.
I'm just curious but does anyone here make minimum wage? ($7.25 USD)? I think right now its kind of impossible to find any job paying that low. I see Mcdonalds and Taco Bell here in North idaho hiring for double, or more, the minimum wage.
My previous employer decided to do this to us last year, lol
"What I read here is that I cannot afford to live in this town off what you pay me."
BAN AVOCADOS AND COFFEE!!!
The poor use them as a crutch when they should be investing in sports gambling
Yep. It’s like offering a drowning person swimming lessons.
Nothing is insulting about a free financial literacy workshop. Anyone who agrees with Wendi here is out of their goddamn mind & likely living check to check while spending money on crap they don't need. Yes, budgeting doesn't help much if you make a low wage, but to say that it isn't a factor is delusional. Here's a fun fact: MOST millionaires got there making slow money working "average" jobs, but budgeted well, only spent on necessities & set up their money to work for them & grow over time. Budgeting & financial literacy in general IS the difference between living check to check & accumulating wealth. My buddy has over $100k saved after 8 years of making $40k/year in a city with a relatively high cost of living. He'd have 1.5x as much had he bought high dividend stocks. He didn't buy new clothes, no new cars, no tattoos, no cigarettes, no happy hours, no going out to dinner, no Christmas cruises, no "treating himself" every day. Just work, home-cooking & budgeting.
Assuming you're in the U.S., let's do some math. 40,000 after taxes is about 32,000/ year, take home. Saving 100k over 8 years is about $12,500/ year. $32,000- $12,500 equals $19,500 to live on. A quick search shows this. Investopedia says the 10 most high cost of living cities in 202 in the U.S. is Miami. Rentopedia shows the average cost of rent in Miami in 2021 is $1915/ month. $1915 x 12 = $22,980. How does that math work? It doesn't.
As far as your "Slow Money" comment goes. That might work well if someone retired in 2005, after working 30 years for a company that had exponential growth, while buying company stock the whole time. Nobody is retiring in 2021 as a millionaire working an "average" job because they budgeted well. They may be retiring with several hundred thousand dollars, because I do know people in that position, but they are not millionaires.
A quick search does show that [businessnewsdaily.com](https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/2871-how-most-millionaires-got-rich.html) says 68% of people who have 30+ million dollars did make it themselves. But they did not make that in today's current economic situation. That money was made in previous decades and carried over.
Basically, the plan that allowed people to retire millionaires from average jobs works if you were born before 1955, or so.
Nice quick mafs. He does have the dough, though. Two factors: he has a few years of 401k matched contributions & he lived in a house with others & had an hour commute for some of that time so that helps on the overhead front. I should have told my own story so I don't have to be speaking for something else & know more details, but it's roughly similar other than that It was 5 years after school before I broke even & got my feet on the ground, but then it added up quickly. I'm aware of the bogus circumstances that make it more difficult to accumulate wealth now than in the past, but to consider being given an opportunity to learn how to be better with money is a good bet, not an insult. I'm as pissed off about the weak buying power of the dollar as anyone else who knows whats up, but you've gotta work with what you've got.
I disagree with you when you suggest it's not doable now. It absolutely is with frugality, home-cooking & the magic of compound interest. Yes, it's harder, but I would argue that most people aren't great with money & that is a big factor.
I must be doing it wrong then. I have only about $15k saved up making $45k/year in 6 years. I wear holey work clothes, and have my right shoe with the heel falling apart.
I bought my truck from my grandma after grandpa died for $1 and the brake line is held together by "Magic" tape for the last 14 months. I don't smoke, drink, do drugs, no going and do anything.
My last personal expenditure was a $9 game I got on sale on steam that I've spent my little bit of free time on. I've worked 25 of the last 27 days, but I have a stay at home mom and a sick uncle to take care of. So single income family. Constantly have to listen to kid and woman complaining about boredom and how there's "nothing to do".
Why am I not rich yet? I have no big toys at home, my brother bought me my computer, house is paid off, no vehicle payments, working on dropping my last $4k off my credit card from when my back went out and we became a half of a single income family.
No that $15k doesn't include my 401k either. But I'm 29 years away from retirement so that's not gonna be part of my money for a loooong time if I don't die from overwork first.
> Why am I not rich yet?
Because you're supporting 4 people on $45k/year? Obviously you are not one of the people he's talking about.
It’s a story he made up or his friend inherited money or is lying about his 401k balance. His hypothetical buddy is still an idiot for having 100k and not bothering to take some classes or live off savings in order to get a better job in a hcol area.
No doubt, 100k he could at least have a decent income on dividend stocks with that. As of right now Coke is $54.48. He could get 1,835 shares with that. At $.42/share he can be making $770.70 or $3,082.80 in divvies a year. Monthly that's $256.90 not bad. That's a week's check for a lot of people.
If he reinvested it at basically the same price (going into hypothetical territory now), he could have ~$127,848.85 in another 8 years on top of all the other money he puts away.
Obviously coke is a lower paying dividend company and putting all your money in one stock is just stupid unless you have insider information (illegal but I'm sure that's how the rich keep winning). I'm just using them as an example because everyone knows what coke is and warren buffett loves em.
Still not sure how $40k/year, which for me I get about 61% of my money after taxes, Insurance, 401k so $24,400 after living expenses which I have no house/car payments cuz it's all paid off, and I shell out about $2k/month so $24k. I'd have $400/year roughly to save so $3,200 in 8 years. How this guy's supposed to have $100k is mind boggling.
This is exactly my point thank you. Not everyone has the same circumstances and even by doing the same things, you can end up poor or rich depending on many, many factors.
I'm happy to just not be tearing my hair out wondering what bill gets paid anymore. Of course when the OT finally disappears again I'll be trying to find more ways to cut back, but I'm basically as cut back as possible now. I can always try living on just water and ramen lol.
Also 3 months ago I got a nice ~$8-9k/year raise that I waited 2.5 years for, so now I don't need 20 hours of OT to be in the black. My normal 40 should juuuuuuust barely cover our monthly bills. Looking forward to the $54k/year for some time. Unless our new owners cut me then I'm borked.
But I can't get complacent yet, I need to get the credit card paid off and at least 6 months in an emergency fund before I feel less stressed. Don't think I'll be "rich" like his friend anytime soon though.
> Not everyone has the same circumstances and even by doing the same things, you can end up poor or rich depending on many, many factors.
Yes, this is obvious. That doesn't mean learning financial literacy skills is useless or insulting. Everyone's circumstances are different, but there are a significant number of poor people who could greatly benefit from a financial literacy workshop.
I never said learning financial literacy skills is useless or insulting. I'm just saying that it's also not the cure-all for poverty.
There are quite a few people who would greatly benefit from financial literacy classes, I know a few myself, people who don't get involved in the 401k offers at work, have no savings, borrow money and pay it back every week, rack up insane credit card charges for stuff they don't need.
Unfortunately financial literacy won't help people who simply don't make enough money, nor are they always able to just switch jobs and get paid better. That's why it'd be nice if people paid a living wage.
> I never said learning financial literacy skills is useless or insulting.
And nor did the person you replied to. They said:
>*"Nothing is insulting about a free financial literacy workshop. Anyone who agrees with Wendi here is out of their goddamn mind & likely living check to check while spending money on crap they don't need. Yes, budgeting doesn't help much if you make a low wage, but to say that it isn't a factor is delusional."*
And you chimed in with a "financial literacy won't help people like me who's wages are too low"... well, yes. That's what he said. You're explicitly not one of the people he was talking about.
How does a budget help when you're making $2k and rent is 2.2k?
Financial literacy would have been something that would have taught you not to commit to a 2.2K a month rental....?
I'm talking market rate, bud
If there's nothing cheaper than what you earn, how will a budget help
If you can't afford rent where you are, then I'm afraid you gotta move. Or move in with (more) roommates. Or something. Getting into a situation where your rent is more than you take home and just hoping it's going to work out by some miracle isn't a plan.
And I'm saying that if more people had financial literacy taught before they made decisions like "let's move into a rental we can't possibly afford", they'd make less choices like that.
Its not a plan, you're right.
But it's the reality people are facing against the country.
You are correct that it's a stupid idea to take a job that won't pay the rent. That's why so many are refusing to take shitty jobs. Increase the wage to a fair wage, and those positions will be filled immediately. I'm glad you can see the problem for what it is, at least. What kind of moron would kill themselves for minimum wage when it won't even pay for the basics?
We need to increase wages until market rates for rent are affordable.
>And I'm saying that if more people had financial literacy taught before they made decisions like "let's move into a rental we can't possibly afford", they'd make less choices like that.
I'm talking market rate, bud
It's like getting yelled at by a preacher before they hand you your sandwich.
You get sandwiches at your church? Best we get is a wafer that tastes like cardboard and awful tasting wine.
I was referring to how most churches feed the homeless.
Wrong. They need a plan to earn more money at a better job. We all had to start somewhere.
What if a person is already doing the best they can? I've worked with people and knew that their current job was the best they would ever do for themselves. Some people don't have the ability to go beyond where they already are. The limitation of these people I've met wasn't a skill, or knowledge, or anything else they could change. These people simply didn't have what it took to get a better job. How do these people earn more money? How would they do a better job providing for their families? How were these people, "wrong?"
Wrong mindset. It’s not an either or. Low wage workers need to be paid more. That’s obvious.
Many low wage workers are poor educated and would benefit greatly from financial literacy.
Both things are important and necessary.
Get skills that deserve more than minimum wage. It's easy. Just because you dont want to work harder doesn't mean you get more money for being useless
12$/hr meets 12$/hr, fall in love, move in together, split bills together, suddenly it's like 24$/hr household, and things are fairly affordable.
Maybe it isnt we earn too little, but we enjoy being single and certainly cant stand roommates ever again.
Why not both?
Both inflation and wage stagnation? We got that.
I mean improve minimum wage and provide financial literacy training.
no one is saying both aren't important but one helps a little and one can literally elevate you out of poverty while still letting you buy coffee from any store you want
"giving people information that might help them make better financial choices is immoral because I have personally deemed it impossible for anybody to achieve any kind of socioeconomic mobility."
uhhhhhhh. someone make this sentiment make sense. yes wages are an issue, but knowledge is never, ever, ever, ever "immoral"
A "living wage" will do you no good if you're not financially literate. You need both to survive.
I pay 50 percent of my monthly income to rent, plus another 40 percent for other bills. Leaving me 10 percent for an emergency fund that gets spent!
That's a sure fire way to just increase the poverty line. People literally complain everyday they weren't taught money, taxes, ect. in school so don't say it's not what people have been asking. WHAT WE NEED is a liveable wage and financial literacy.
Just like all types of literacy, EVERYBODY benefits from being financially literate, and no matter how financially literate you may be, there’s ALWAYS something that you can learn and benefit from.
Financial illiteracy, consumer credit, and rampant consumerism is just another method of keeping the working class down. Of course we need better wages but we also need good financial education.
I mean it doesn't hurt, but agree wages need to be higher.
Here’s a little workshop… the cost of living is significantly higher than the amount of money made working full time at a minimum wage job. 40hrs per week should be enough to make a living wage in the richest country of the history of the world. Pay up, suckers.
My company actually posted something about selling things you don't need to create finances (manufacturing company, and they're all pretty much, lock step with suppressing wages) regularly has workshops and retirement, why people should put it off for a few more years (so hilarious watching a guy go from such a meeting years ago, directly to HR to announce his resignation/retirement).
“Idk who needs to hear this” sticks out to me here. Are the people who run financial literacy workshops the ones preventing workers from getting a living wage? If these workshops were run by employers paying minimum wage then I’d agree (is that the case?), but I don’t think there’s inherently anything wrong with spreading financial literacy.
I hate this sentiment. I mean, yes. Financial literacy won’t save you if you make minimum wage. But the idea that you shouldn’t bother is fucking everyone over. Knowing is better than not knowing.
Lol budgeting and financial literacy helps you no matter how much or how little you make. If you're behind on your bills don't buy lottery tickets. If you can't afford to feed and clothe your family then don't buy cigarettes. Don't eat out because even cheap fast foods costs several types what you can buy at grocery stores. Don't use a credit cards unless it's for essentials and emergencies cause if you constantly have a balance on your cards you're paying like 20% in interest per year. I used to think money wasting was a rich person thing but when I got my first full time job at 18 I was shocked at how bad my coworkers were with money. Even though we all made the same shit wage they were so wasteful and I was always surprised when they told me how much they spent on what. They acted like their paycheck were coupons that they had to use within 2 weeks or they'd expire. Why do so many Americans say that most Americans are ignorant idiots and that the public school system shit but then get outraged when it's suggested that people need to learn financial literacy and get taught how to waste less money?
I remember ages ago being in a mandatory stakeholders update meeting, the big shot CFO was bouncing around talking about how everyone needs to invest and buy stocks etc. Almost 95% in the room were living paycheck to paycheck. It was mind blowing how out of touch they were.
No there is nothing wrong with these workshops because many of these people really are terrible at managing their money. I also agree wages are not keeping up with everything else, but to act like it would just solve all the poverty workers problems is stupid. These workshops are good.
Why not both? Give us a living wage, give us the opportunity to learn and manage our finances.
A healthy, happy workforce can only be a win-win for the economy right?
Lol who the fuck are we kidding, this is 'murica. Those bootstraps aren't going to jerk themselves up!
Why not both
Better than nothing, learn how to manage money even if you don't have it... Reform comes in small steps usually not leaps and bounds
Yes there needs to be a living wage.
But financial literacy is a skill.
I’ve seen people who make 5k or better a month, and they’re broke as fuck because they’re bad with money.
Most lottery winners are broke within 5 years.
I work for a bank, I’ve seen thousands of accounts at all income levels, and as a subject matter expert, I am telling you point blank in no uncertain terms that the problem of a living wage is not the only issue.
I’m not much for anecdotes, they’re not data, but as an example…
A guy I spoke with was having serious health issues, and serious money problems, I can’t remember what his original reason for reaching out was, but after talking with him for a few minutes and he unloaded to the point of tears, (that happens a lot more than you might think), I said ‘Give me ten minutes.’
I went through three months of transactions on his statements and told him, ‘You’re spending $800 per month at the Golden Coral.”
Me: ‘Yes, and that’s just there.’
He explains that there’s one between his house and hospital, and he was going there three times per day, every day, and he’s been stress eating.
He just never noticed the true cost of his routine, he only ever thought of these in terms of their individual cost rather than their cumulative impact, never did the math, and so never knew what he was doing to himself.
I went through his expenses and explained that if he changed nothing else, he’d be out of debt in about three years and could afford to save long before that after clearing his highest interest stuff.
YES we need a living wage, nobody working should be poor by wage alone.
But everybody needs to know how to manage what they make.
Middle class included.
Like I said, thousands of accounts, and even the typical middle class person can’t last a month unemployed. Most of them are one step from poverty, and they shouldn’t be.
The solution is more complicated than a pay raise.
They need to bring back home economics in high schools. And yes pay a livable wage
Until high school stops being college prep it won't happen.
They always the needs to do with less to become less poor but never suggest the billionaires go with one less yacht or mansion so their employees could have more of a life than work, sleep, save money.
Or they could do something to improve their situation. Every single course that MIT teaches is available for free. Libraries are still a thing. Many trades that can be learned with OJT pay quite well.
Yes the courses are free and you can get educated but the employers want that diploma. Yes, libraries are a great resource to learn and the trades are really hit or miss on a variety of factors. I did the trades for a period of time and honestly I would have been better served by working retail instead of wasting my time.
You must have worked in the wrong trade. BTW, in my profession, a lot of people are hired without a degree and get paid quite well.
It's possible because I live in a union-unfriendly state and they only get a small percentage of the work in that field but apprentices I get it they don't make shit and work their way up...but unless you are 18 and still living at home you can get fucked.
I don't live in a state where they require you to give money to the Mafia to keep your job either. You have to prioritize what you really need. Do you really need the newest LemmingPhone or can you use something older?
I was trying to keep a roof over my head.
I even tried going non-union but a lot of the apprenticeships for other trades had waiting lists, no one wanted helpers for anything so while for some people it's a great option it didn't work out for me. A lot of the complaints you see all over "no one wants to work!!!" Well you won't give anyone a chance and there's no real way for them to enter.
If I lived in a different area at the time and was younger and didn't have a mortgage or a wife and a kid and I lived at home it'd be fine because my dad was in the same trade and he'd have no problem with me living at home then. I ended up going into retail and using my GI Bill to finish a degree. I later went back in the reserves and changing civilian jobs after retraining/re-classing in the reserves helped propel me a lot further and I kept looking and finding new opportunities so there's a happy ending.
Tbh both are the answer, if you pay people more, and help them learn how to budget properly, a lot of people would be more satisfied with their finances. Getting better pay is 3 quarters of the problem though.
"Look what you could be doing with the money you can't make"
"Starve yourself to solvency while I gorge on the surplus labor of yours that I stole"
I used to volunteer as a money management assistant at the center for economic progress. I'd talk with people about budgets while they were waiting to have their taxes done for free my volunteer tax preparers.
When I first approached them they'd say they didn't have money for a budget. I'd point out that if they have cash inflow/outflow there is a budget.
People's minds would be blown once they realized how much money they spent on certain things like soda. Sure the discussion didn't give them more money but it did give them perspective on where their moneh went so they could use that to decide if they wanted to make changes.
I took financial literacy in highschool, it was the only class where I felt like I was learning something I could actually use. Even at that age I felt everyone should go through it.
This is gaslighting people into putting the blame for their poverty situation on them 'You would be in this mess if you just budgeted properly' Like fuck off, budgeting doesn't make my rent or the cost of living go down twat.