T O P

I want to share a conversation I had with a managing director at one of the largest asset managers in the world about DEI

I want to share a conversation I had with a managing director at one of the largest asset managers in the world about DEI

Guilty_Medicine6929

This is why when asked my ethnicity on applications, I put that I’d prefer not to say.


Martincela

But then they can just not hire you when they see you at the interview, it's difficult to find an escape from this (or directly not call for interview the ones who doesn't disclose ethnicity)


Yomianu

You could always put Native American and if they want to 23 and me you at the interview sue them out of existence.


trill_collins__

^^ good strategy I had never thought of But to OPs point, this is very real, at least in huge, global organizations (I'm apart of one). During recruiting season, we always have arguments back-and-forth with HR about pushing forward the candidates that are on the top of our list vs. meeting that years diversity quota for analysts and associates.


Guilty_Medicine6929

What does HR say if one of your “top of the list” candidates suddenly decide to say they’re trans-racial, and they are whatever race the diversity quota needs them to be? Has that ever happened?


trill_collins__

Hasn't ever happened before - honestly, I've thought a better strategy would be to apply as a Pride-related diversity candidate.


Guilty_Medicine6929

I’ve never heard of that before, a pride related diversity candidate? Would a straight white man claiming to be trans-racially black and cisgender (or not answering any gender questions at all,) check all the relevant boxes? I hate this corporate world where we can’t just hire the best people for the job, regardless of what the outside world wants.


trill_collins__

>I faked being LGBTQ and applied for all the programs, I was 100% straight before I applied to anything. I wanted to make sure I was convincingly gay, so I started watching RuPauls drag race and then lady boy porn, then gay porn. I was kind of turned on honestly, so I downloaded grindr just to see what my options were. Within twenty minutes, I was getting sucked off by a hot stud who lived in the same building as me. I figured it wasn't gay to let a dude suck me off, a BJ is just a BJ, but then the next time we did it, we went further and the rest is history. I realized that being gay is a lot of fun, and I am no longer faking being bisexual. This post is 100% serious, and I would say to anyone reading this - life is short, experiment and try new things out ;) https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/stories-about-faking-diversity


SellSideER

I did this on an app one time and shortly thereafter I got an email that my app was incomplete because I didn’t pick one. I’m not sure that’s the best answer for an application but I don’t have any experience with HR.


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SellSideER

I don’t know what to say. It happened. I’m not making it up.


LNhart

feel like they will still find out during the interview process


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Guilty_Medicine6929

Could you really get away with that? I don’t know, I feel like a white guy clicking “black” to get put in the “person of color” file would not work out lmao


swerve408

This sounds like an always sunny episode lol


PeKaYking

Woah, mr Hitler here not respecting transracial people


Guilty_Medicine6929

Oh no, please don’t cancel me lol. But seriously, if a white guy said they’re trans-racially black, would that help fill in the company’s diversity quota? Or would he “not fit into the culture” at that point?


vonkrueger

I don't think "transracial" is a big enough thing yet to be generally accepted. You could probably get away with hispanic vs. non-hispanic because that's distinct and I believe more subjective ("identifiable") than race.


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Guilty_Medicine6929

In that case, I’m Native American. I mean, I’ve been native to America my whole life lol


Iam-KD

lol what? You can't put white if your African or Middle East looking. And they can recognize you when you meet them for an interview.


trill_collins__

What is HR supposed to say? "I mean.....you don't really look *that* black" No way in fuck they'd raise the flag on this internally. Too much potential to blow up in somebody's face.


djemoneysigns

You know there are white people who live in Africa? And if they move to America they are African American, see Elon musk. And oh yeah, technically middle eastern people are considered white because there is no category for them. I’m 25% bipoc and put it as my sole race.


Usus-Kiki

People from the middle east are literally categorized as caucasian (white). Lol.. What exactly are they going to "recognize"? "You don't really look white enough to be white". Yea ok thanks for the easy lawsuit win.


Emmanuel_Merkel

Is this in London?


HelpMeDoTheThing

NYC!


loldogex

wow, i want to say this blows my mind, it's not surprising, but i didn't think that corporate would be so hardcore about this.


Bright_Jellyfish8837

NYC? Yea not shocked


MidnightOcean

There’s a particular massive asset management firm, with headquarters on the West Coast, that is getting a reputation for going overboard on DEI. At this particular organization, DEI participation and support is now 10-20% of an employee’s performance review. Does that sound familiar?


DoubleDVa

They're not only asking and caring about race but sexual orientation is being considered as well now.


djemoneysigns

At least it’s easy to fake sexual orientation.


PeKaYking

...Until they add an aditional assessment


nottooeloquent

Well, do you want the job or not?..


PeKaYking

Hmm I think I've already seen that ...documentary somewhere


djemoneysigns

Haha. I’d experiment to get a solid job. Maybe I am bi. Anyway, happy pride.


DoubleDVa

Not that I disagree with you, but I don't think it should matter, just like race.


SellSideER

This is why target schools are more important than ever IMO. The bar is rising for white / Asian people in finance, and very quickly. I’m not here to say whether that’s right or wrong (everyone knows there are tons of white kids on the Street who are only there because family connections), but it’s reality. Asians are likely to be hardest hit by all this, as they are proportionately overrepresented on the street, target schools have a higher bar for them, and in many cases, don’t fit a firm’s definition of minorities.


BossOfGuns

Don't forget, AA does not get rid of the privileged in the business, they just make it harder for your average Joe to break in. Let say a company has 100 employees, 90 white, 10 asian. Now a DEI "quota" comes in and says you "should" have 10 BIPOCs in your group. If a hiring manager is truly a racist, he wouldn't be slicing out the white people, he would be going for the asians first, and if that's not enough, he's going for the people who got in the hard way. The nepotists are the last ones to go.


trashgordon2000

This is why Asians are all grouped together, so that 10% is shared by 30 different nationalities/ethnicities.


OpenMarketOperations

Maybe this is just Canada but I'd say 80%+ of Asians I've met who work in Finance are Chinese (mainland, HK, Taiwan), and the remaining 20% are usually Korean or Indian, so that's what my mind defaults to.


BurninCrab

I'm a Taiwanese who works in finance, but I don't consider myself Chinese. My family has lived in Taiwan for hundreds of years and many generations - I literally don't have any relatives who live in China


OpenMarketOperations

That's completely fair, I just tend to sort them together due to the geographical proximity, shared language, and shared names (in my experience at least). In the same way a non-western person might categorize Canadians and Americans with English last names, or Australians and New Zealanders with English last names, together. I know there is a deep history to the region and culture of Taiwan. I can assure you no harm was meant my friend, cheers!


Babyboy1314

How are Indians not a person of colour?


BossOfGuns

because the media said so


Babyboy1314

absolutely unreal. Its not like racism against asians doesn't exist. Yet just because a lot of them work insanely hard, they are punished for succeeding?


benjalss

correct. left-wing racism: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/196/807/183.jpg


avakadava

it's that they're a minority that's often overrepresented in applicants


itsthekumar

Exactly. I don’t see the “white quota” decreasing by that much but of course the Asian quota will.


Usus-Kiki

Its like this in tech as well - I've literally had managers tell me they need to interview Diversity candidates before they can hire me, granted this was for internally transferring roles, which is why they were so open with me. Its ridiculous - I had to wait around for a week or two while they wasted people's time to satisfy HR and the offer went to me any way. Its a waste of the DEI candidate's time, wastes my time, and wastes the hiring manager's time. If the first candidate they interview is the perfect fit and is also a diversity candidate, do they wait around to make sure they interview an Asian/White candidate prior to sending out an offer? Hell no. So why is it that as Asians or Whites we have to wait around and have our time wasted. Just irritates me as this isn't actually helping under-represented groups, its just one big show for HR to check the right boxes.


13104598210

The people really getting fucked over are poor white kids. You know, the people who voted for Trump. Guess who they'll vote for in 2024 if this keeps up...


Remedy9898

It’s designed that way on purpose. It’s fine to discriminate against poor white people because others that share their skin color are successful. These decisions are all made by white people, most of whom are rich and went to prestigious universities. This solution is not harmful to them, they can use their wealth and connections to make sure it’s poor white people that lose opportunities, not them or their buddies.


13104598210

Yup, class matters more than race.


DontMakeMeThinkHard

This 100%. I know some white people living in poverty who bust out laughing every time people try to pull the “white privilege” card on them, and I can’t blame them. The concept of white privilege only seems to fit when you look through a very specific lens at rich white people, and even then it’s more just rich privilege than white privilege.


RealisticPudding6546

the people that are truly fucked are the Black kids that are actually smart enough to compete with the White/Asian kids (excluding those who broke in on connections). This entire DEI movement has programmed people to not believe smart Black kids exist, so you have those on the left that view Blacks as helpless and always in need and you'll have those on the right that think no Black kid can ever be as smart as they are or even smarter. So yes, people will doubt abilities at first sight It also depends where coworkers are from...North America is highly politcial and youth are being programmed to see race at a very young age


nutmegger189

It's definitely a big thing. I've had BB interviews where they really praised my ethnic origin and it felt uncomfortable. You can tell that this has been shoved down leaderships throats. As much as I'm in support of action to break biases, I don't want to be hired \*because\* of my skin colour.


lprend17

How did they praise your ethnic origin?


oldguy_1981

Just wanted to chime and say that this has been HR's instruction to me personally for the previous three years of intern cycles (19-21). And it's *extremely* heavy-handed. When we say "hey we like Liu he's the best by far" HR will fucking lose it if we don't have enough minorities or women yet. Each year ... do you know how many white / asian male non-target students got an internship? Zero. Do you know how many non-target diversity hires got internships? Lots. The senior leadership is heavily skewed toward one race. Did they fire anyone in senior leadership to replace them with minorities? No, of course not. On the flip side ... I've seen several women VPs get promoted to managing director that were absolutely terrible bankers. Extremely low performance, low revenue from fees, does things like not close a single deal all year (or the only deal they closed, another banker sourced it and added them to the deal team out of charity ...). These women would never have been promoted if not for their gender - but HR keeps harping on us to promote diversity candidates as well.


Boob_Cousy

My dad recently quit his job because the senior leadership team said they couldn't move another white guy up and that the next level up would require diversity hires. Needless to say he left and found a company that would actually pay him what he was worth.


Babyboy1314

Really sucks for Asian males (east and south asians).


CF_HaystackNeedle

Not fighting you, just genuinely curious - do you think it's harder for women to close deals because the client side may be more comfortable dealing with men, or are other women at your firm/in your industry managing to close deals (as opposed to underperforming)?


oldguy_1981

No there are rockstar female MDs that I have worked with. In this example it's purely because there are political influences arguing that not enough women get promoted. Purely because of performance here. What I do see is that a lot of women don't want to be the 50 year old grizzled veteran. They retire. They start families. They move to different roles that are easier. It's more common for men to be the ones trying to climb the corporate ladder. After a while the system self selects to be mostly men in upper management, it's not because of some nefarious plot to block women from advancement. Another example of where I think the industry is accused of "sexism" unfairly. For some reason, I would argue that most junior female bankers are above average attractiveness. Is it because the hiring managers are biased against ugly women? Or could it be that the traits of a successful banker - hardworking, disciplined, ambitious, etc, are also the traits held by people that eat right, maintain a regular exercise schedule, and generally present themselves well?


CommercialRealtard

Listen to the recent WSJ podcast episode. It talks about how executive pay has started to be linked directly to diversity quotas.


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Moneyspeaks7

How do you suggest we combat a lack of diversity in banking?


burbleboy

So you’re implying racism and sexism is ok since you can’t think of a better way? Am I getting this right? Hire the best candidate regardless and don’t involve race. Out of curiosity, how concerned are you over the lack of diversity in the NBA?


Rick_Sanchez1214

Welcome to the current environment. I just found a new role, after looking for the last 5~ months. I’m a white guy. I was told by at least one headhunter that he had a hiring manager tell him outright that was looking for people of color, specifically non white, non Asian, non Indian people - as he was being pushed by his HR group. In this instance mind you, the hiring manager was Indian. Diversity and inclusion have become hot button issues for many financial firms over the last couple years, and the temperature in the room seems to have gotten hotter. They’ve all took a look inside and realized that the majority of their workforce are white males, their tech teams are all Indians on H1B visas, and they’ve got too few women in leadership positions. Now I think a lot of companies need to continue do better in this area, and frankly I’m happy to see the pendulum swing a bit. However, what bothers me, is when someone’s culture, skin color, or background is taken into a consideration as a hiring mandate ie) I have to fill this role with someone who is Puerto Rican. Because at that point you are filling a role to meet a diversity quota and not looking for the best possible candidate. I’ve been a hiring manager and I can honestly say I’ve hired Asian men/women, Indian men/women, Black men, White men/women - and in every instance they were hired because their resume and skills best matched the role we needed. Plain and simple. What I would say to you- is that everyone looking for a role is looking for an edge. While you may believe your background isn’t an edge or something for you to exploit, I would say you should use every tool in your toolbox to find an advantage to stick out.


Relevations

>Now I think a lot of companies need to continue do better in this area, and frankly I’m happy to see the pendulum swing a bit. However, what bothers me, is when someone’s culture, skin color, or background is taken into a consideration as a hiring mandate ie) I have to fill this role with someone who is Puerto Rican. Because at that point you are filling a role to meet a diversity quota and not looking for the best possible candidate. I mean aren't you're contradicting yourself? You say you're happy to see the pendulum swing in their direction for hiring purposes, yet you still want them to hire the best person for the job? Those two things aren't possible. Either we're being completely agnostic to race and gender or we aren't.


Rick_Sanchez1214

You are either missing the point on purpose to start an argument or you simply don’t understand. As a hiring manager, and to use a fictitious example, the directive and mandate coming from your HR partners or your management should NEVER be “you must hire a Latino Woman for this position to satisfy our firm’s diversity requirement”. That, in itself, is a form of discrimination to every other type of person who may apply for your role and are automatically not considered. The bottom line is, the candidate with the strongest resume and skillset that best fits the role, should be considered for interview and hire. The responsibility falls to Talent Acquisition to ensure that they are putting forth a diverse range of candidates that meet the requirements for the role. If that obligation isn’t being met, it’s a problem. If that condition is being met and diversity improvements aren’t being made, then training needs to take place at the hiring manager level to ensure that they are not biased in their resume screening and interview process. Collectively, we must all continue to do better and there is work to be done to improve hiring practices. But to be clear, from the start of a req being opened, being told by the top down that you may only consider people that meet a piece of specific cultural or national background for a role is flat out wrong.


Relevations

I'm interpreting what you said. You said you're happy to see the pendulum swing in favor of women and that you think companies need to do better in this area. It was confusing because you then go on to say the exact opposite. Consider editing it or clarifying what you meant by that sentence.


ThatNoid

What he means, if I am correct is that there are plenty of qualified candidates of each race and gender to fill a role. Traditionally, many banks and financial institutions have been run by white men who in turn have white male friends and networks. This obviously made it comparatively easier for more white men to get into these spots and the cycle continues. If hiring was always done with only the best candidate in mind, we wouldn't see that makeup. It's good to see this change with a more diverse workforce but the very notion of mandating diversity hires goes against the concept that there have always been qualified candidates of any race and gender. Exclusive diversity hiring is something to point to and say look we are fixing the issue! When in reality the issue is more inherently cultural to the firm itself considering that upper management still is largely white male dominated.


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finnayeet69

as a male Indian student myself, I’d love to know how prevalent this discrimination is through the finance industry


Emmanuel_Merkel

Oh no! That's a double whammy (Indian+male)


iamRithG

Triple if he's general category. Quadruple if he's also an engineer.


Emmanuel_Merkel

What is"general category"?


iamRithG

Not going into much details. You can look up "reservation in India" on wiki for more details. In india, people are give preference depending upon their caste in education and government jobs. General category implies your caste will have zero preference.


Moneyspeaks7

Caste is really still used like that? Wow that is terrible.


SellSideER

It has made it to the United States in some tech companies and IT departments. Planet Money (or some other NPR podcast) did a thing on it.


Aggressive-Mud-1239

I don’t know about hiring specifically for full time roles, but I was accepted to almost every top ranked master in finance programs I applied to and from my research found out the bar for Indians is soooo much higher because they get an absolutely phenomenal number of applications, for these and for the mba level, making it so hard to stand out. Their strengths are almost always quantitative ability and ability to work hard, but this doesn’t let them stand out and gives admissions officers heavy (and somewhat true) stereotypes. Their weakness is the fact that they often lack much other impressive experience than high test scores, which may or not be unfair given that even really good but not elite Indian companies might be compared to no-names in the us and uk. The narrative this is ultimately assigned is that this is because they come from a culture which prises entrance exams as the prime childhood achievement (Tbf this is the same in mainland europe), which contrasts sharply with the USA and UK where grades are absolutely secondary to extra-curricular and leadership experience in recruiting for business schools and jobs. As a white male with ‘privilege on a paper’, I wish you the best of luck and advise you to use every possible thing to your honest advantage, as have I.


WalmartDarthVader

So true what you said about Indian people. They are in a tough spot cause they have to compete with many other people just like them. It’s a tough bucket to be in.


finnayeet69

i do understand where recruiters are coming from in regards to a differential hiring process, but i also acknowledge that this system may turn go against the principles of meritocracy if it is not practiced appropriately. i guess we’re just going to have to suck it up and work extra hard, all the best to you as well!


abzftw

Depends where OP is from


SpicyMcNuggetss

Totally normal in finance.. Even at the boutique level, I was hiring for an internship position and was explicitly told to hire a girl regardless of ability.


Sovereign_Mind

My school had a corporate banking event that was segregated (for black and hispanic students only, no whites allowed). I emailed the person who sent it very confused about what was going on. This type of stuff seems so backwards to me. Race should play no part in who gets a job or who is invited to an event.


doubleyouofficial

I could be wrong but this is completely illegal in the US, right?


weirdlump

“Illegal”


doubleyouofficial

lmao


ThrowawayFiDiGuy

Colleges have been doing this for decades. I don’t think it’s illegal.


doubleyouofficial

i mean i would think it falls under race discrimination in hiring, meaning they would have to find AND disclose a “legitimate” reason to not accept a certain candidate (which could be literally anything). https://blog.psionline.com/talent/selective-hiring-is-it-really-illegal


BossOfGuns

It's EXTREMELY hard to prove that in court. Colleges always use the fact that "Minorities (Non-asians) provide valuable insights and brings unique perspective to our campus and community" and a lot of companies say the same thing. Not to mention that in the hiring process, they are trained to never give you a reason as of why you are rejected, because they could be in big legal trouble. In fact, I got rejected by Goldman the other day, and they didn't even tell me I was rejected in my email. "your application status has been updated, please login to the careers site to see the update".


doubleyouofficial

Interesting. I’ve always thought there’s a huge liability risk surrounding this topic but didn’t realize that’s exactly how they took care of it. They really have thought of everything huh


BossOfGuns

Basically you can be discriminatory if "its essential for business". This is why hooters can hire only female servers [here](https://www.businessinsider.com/how-can-hooters-hire-only-women-2015-9). So basically lets say you are a business analyst at Nike, for an easy example. They could hire a BIPOC, and if the other candidates attempt to sue, they'll simply say "well the candidate we hired brings a diverse point of view within the African American consumer base". I used Nike as an easier example but I'm sure the HR departments are much better at this than me. I don't disagree with the fact that diversity brings constructive viewpoints, because after all I just brought a new viewpoint to you. But sometimes it's just a silly excuse. It's exceedingly difficult to prove racism in admissions, that's why the Harvard vs asians lawsuit has been going on since trump admin and its still going.


doubleyouofficial

Agreed. I don’t think anyone’s arguing against diversity itself (at least anyone worth listening to) - there’s just a point where HR filling quotas for PR in roles that could be assumed by anyone just because competitors are doing the same walks a fine ethical line imo. Or more-so the “cover-up” of the fact that they’re just filling a quota. But again it’s also ethically wrong to deny someone because they are underrepresented. I don’t imagine these processes will ever be “perfect” but there will be this perpetual back and forth and eventual long-term growth. I think it’s good at least diversity and inclusion is a popular workplace topic, even if it takes time to implement it in a non-disingenuous way that actually solves the problems at hand.


Sir_Meowstro

no because you can't be racist against white people /s


Acquilae

The ADA is a federal law that's even more black and white than hiring discrimination. Yet employers know that they can easily shit all over it rather than give one inch to a disabled employee by providing a reasonable accommodation.


PCBH87

Yes. It's illegal to factor race when hiring. It's not illegal to seek out a diverse pool of applicants, but race can't be used as a factor when making the final decision. Obviously - it's hard to prove though and these sorts of issues are common.


doubleyouofficial

this makes sense


GoBlue2006

It’s a thing to an extent. I haven’t had any issues hiring, but have heard of teams at my firm that have multiple roles open that were getting ready to give offers on. When HR found out all offers for that team (I think 4?) were going to white males they pulled the headcount.


romeo_rocks

We already didn't have many jobs opportunities in India, and now we won't out of India. Perfect 👌


fx125125

I second this. My bf does interview for his bank (BB) and between 2 candidates - female but less competent and male but more competent - he was told to choose the female to meet DEI. And for that same bank, a friend of mine reach out to say if any of my friends are interested in a junior role? The only criteria is to havd finance background and being BLACK


jisooboombayah

It's common, especially in entry and junior roles, where the candidates' skills and qualifications are almost identical. Companies will choose someone who fit their quota and policies first


Boob_Cousy

I recently received an offer from a boutique investment bank. After receiving the offer I was told that I performed really well throughout the process which was important because apparently they had a high execution bar that needed to be met by any male that is white, Indian, or East Asian in order to hire them. It's strange hearing that the only issue a company had with you was your race/gender when you aren't used to it (not that it's ever ok).


itsthekumar

Did you ask them why Indians and East Asians had to meet that higher bar?


mel_cache

FWIW, I recruited in a different industry (petroleum exploration) 30 years ago, and we faced the same situation. We were supposed to hire as many POCs as possible (which wasn’t many because the candidates weren’t there) and there was a huge backlash among the white male employees. We did hire some POCs, both equally qualified and some given the benefit of a doubt. None made it to the higher levels. But then, few whites made it to the higher levels either. It’s not a new problem, and the solution is not to hire anyone you can get your hands on. It’s deeper than that, and needs to be solved at the K-12 level or earlier.


LiquidLiabilities

I was once told in a final round interview at a large finance firm that they are looking for women/poc. I’m a white guy… The interviewer also bragged about how she married an immigrant. Very weird experience.


GummyBearFighter

Ia this a temporary thing? The way people make it sound, it’s as if there will be no white people joining finance for the foreseeable future....but let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that’s the case nor will the summer analyst or analyst or PE associate class be all “diverse” or something. I’ve done hiring in IB, granted a few years ago, and we had to give girls offers who didn’t know what IB was over guys who had done IB internships lol. But it’s finance, the same demographic is gonna stay there...


SellSideER

>I’ve done hiring in IB, granted a few years ago, and we had to give girls offers who didn’t know what IB was over guys who had done IB internships lol. How many of these women lasted a year before heading out? I can’t imagine not knowing what you’re getting into and then being thrown into an 80 hour work week almost immediately after hire.


GummyBearFighter

Oh yeah in my anecdotal experience at least, the ones who literally could not tell me what IB is, did their interview via Skype cause they were studying abroad during recruiting season (IMO an immediate no), and were there because of a family relationship (read: I got an email 2 minutes after her interview ended from a group head who I’ve never spoken to), they usually burn out pretty quick and people are annoyed cause they have to tiptoe around them. Not to say the same doesn’t happen for thin skinned dudes who get hired. As an extreme comparison, one girl in my class still refers to her 2 years with terms such as PTSD and stuff like that whereas I talk about it with terms such as my exit from being a broke college kid lol


BossOfGuns

This is anecdotal, but I had a Linkedin connection who got a JPM summer analyst job just recently through what I believe is diversity hiring, even though most of the summer analyst recruiting have closed out almost 5/6 months ago. And as I said in another post, if hiring manager is truly racist, no amount of diversity quota would fix it. The asians who got their through merit would go first before they would touch anyone else.


Samcrow15

This is really unfortunate, in all honesty I say that mostly because I’m white and saw this coming after Floyd riots. The firm I work for has also released goals for POC leadership within next 5 years. I respect you for taking hesitancy regarding using your race to get ahead. At the same time, use what you got? To me, a perfect world is one where the best candidate wins, but that seems to be a less prevalent opinion these days.


Destrier26

i love how a companies response to george floyd's death was hire more black people than contribute funds to BLM or something or start a foundation or something like that


sparktwerk

>I mean didnt they find out all the BLM funds were just spent on housing for the one black woman who collected the funds


ShillForExxonMobil

No, that isn’t what they found.


itsthekumar

I don’t mean to lecture you, but that has never been the case where the supposed “best” candidate wins. There was always some form of discrimination for or against certain groups of people whether racial, ethnic, economic, physical looks etc.


sparktwerk

You are lecturing, and while some biases take place I really dont think NEVER been the case applies. A lot of cases its more friends hiring friends than anything else


itsthekumar

Yes I meant more so from a macro level of the hiring system.


walrusdoom

This isn’t entirely new, and companies play with fire by doing this. There’s no better way to fan the flames of fascism than to have clumps of angry, young, unemployed white men who feel disenfranchised by the very system their culture created.


DontMakeMeThinkHard

Especially when their anger is somewhat justified by racist hiring practices. Or when they’re told they should feel guilty or inferior because of their skin color. I wish we just lived in a world where racism against anyone didn’t exist... Is it really that difficult of an idea to get behind?


itsthekumar

Maybe if racism hadn’t kept so many people down for centuries then we wouldn’t have to look at race.


walrusdoom

Not when we live in a world where the group in power enslaved other groups for centuries and systematically annihilated their cultures. I’m not saying white people don’t deserve harsh consequences - we do - I just think there’s a deep level of naive thought surrounding DEI training, employment reform and its consequences.


DontMakeMeThinkHard

“I’m not saying white people dont deserve harsh consequences - we do” This kind of revenge / guilt / payback mindset is what is causing the problem in the first place. It doesn’t solve anything (and, I would argue is morally impermissible) to pin collective guilt on a whole race of people, wholly ignoring the innocence of individual members of that group in the process. Look at history for countless examples of where this was done, and tell me it is the path forward to a better world. You can’t beat racism with more racism, because that’ll just make people more divided and inspire more racism. EDIT: Clarity


idontbrowseaww

The naive thought is letting boards of old white men organically hire for DEI. They tried. It never happened. This is the result of inaction not an action in itself.


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Quackattack218

Lmao this has been the plight of minorities since the creation of this country (assuming you're talking about the USA) and they did not try overturning democracy and create the third Reich. Delusional


sffintaway

I work at a large MM bank where this is being absolutely shoved down our throats. I've seen white men/women, Asian men/women fired very quickly for not picking up the job very quickly. Our department director found a woman of the correct skin color for a team in our dept, and her resume was impressive but she never received internal promotions, which was a bit of a red flag. She shows up, and clearly knows nothing about finance. Doesn't log in much, always has a yellow bubble. Instead of getting fired, the director tries to find a place for her in the dept. that would be a better fit (anyone else would have been fired). They hire another person for that team to pick up the slack while she does nothing, and eventually she quits to go to an elite buyside job centered around impact investing. She'll just keep falling up while qualified candidates (esp. Asian/Indian women) aren't given their fair shake.


itsthekumar

You could say similar things about white guys/girls who were hired just because their Dad knew someone. Also, you’re presuming a lot of things about that person, the team and department. Are you a manager or HR employee that you have access to everything that’s going on in that department?


nottooeloquent

Stop licking your own ass in this thread please...


sffintaway

You're making a false equivalency. And I just said that plenty of others got fired even though they were better employees, and many were women/POC. How is that fair, just because her skin color happens to be the hot flavor of the month? This totem pole of oppression is getting very obnoxious


OpenMarketOperations

I'm Canadian, like REALLY Canadian as in my family has been in Quebec since 1600, and obviously being here that long I have single digit percentage of Indigenous ancestry as confirmed by 23 and me and old marriage records, so I always just say I am Métis (mixed French and native ancestry, recognized indigenous group in Canada) on applications despite looking very white. Never failed me yet.


alta3773

I am a little skeptical about the true level that race plays. What I mean by that is in large companies there are still people in senior roles who think that diversity efforts are bad. Sometimes these people play the victim and talk about how they “can’t hire white people” this is just not true. If they had 50 roles to fill and filled the first 49 with straight white men, and are so far behind all of the targets. Then it might be true that they have to fill a role with someone who is not white but they also chose to not develop a diverse pipeline for talent. You need to take all of this with a grain of salt as it is one area where emotions outpace facts.


BossOfGuns

That's why the HR is there. Also some of the "truly racist" companies tend to stuff their diversity quota workers in back office roles (your operations, accounting, etc) because no one cares as long as the statistics look right.


SquirrelFoods

I'm in the States with a job that lets me listen to CSPAN during part of the day, and there have been entire congressional hearings with the progressive Democrats just yelling at bank officials because they allegedly don't have enough non-white employees. (The intelligence community gets similar treatment lately, and the State Department.) "Move up non-white individuals into upper-level management, OR ELSE!" is what they're effectively saying. This in a country where it's mainstream to think that all of the banks, hedge funds, etc are run by people like George Soros. Old, white, and Jewish. The constituents of these politicians absolutely don't know about how many Indians and Russians and every other ethnicity that has risen on Wall Street. And they're looking for a scapegoat like in 2008. Even more now, because the people who didn't participate in Occupy Wall Street in 2008 have been "at home" during quarantine and protested in the cities. Now they feel they have a stake in bringing about "communism" (quotes because U.S. communism is a bit pop culture right now) and that means "bringing down the banks."


oldmansamuelson

I think the situation sucks but you also got to keep in mind more often than not, a white male is hired in finance because he fits in more. Also keep in mind that Asians are promoted less than white folks (goldman is 27% Asian but only 11% of executives are Asian for example). More often than not, white people benefit from the racism in the workforce.


YesIUseJarvan

Nobody in the thread is really realizing this, they think the finance industry is a lost cause for white people to recruit to because of their one anecdotal experience where an underrepresented group was hired over the typical white male fratbro. And all of the hate is ridiculously targeted at black people while statistics show that white women actually benefit more from AA.


itsthekumar

The “belly aching” from this thread is weird to me. White men have been in charge for centuries and trying to make a little change and people cry foul etc. Even these changes are small because most of the finance industry will still be white people from Ivy League schools... Funny how no one is standing up against Asians not getting offers....(which should be coming from the white pool of offers not by decreasing the minority/Asian pool of offers).


christopherdrums

The changes may seem small to you but when you’re rejected from a position because you’re white it’s not “small”. It’s racism.


oldmansamuelson

So, I do feel bad for OP. However, instances like this are more rare than how historically racist wall street has been to minorities and sexist towards women. The issue I have, is if wall street goes only on merit, it would become significantly more asian, female, and other minorities (see Berkeley and ucsd racial breakdown). Then white folks would complain even more that minorities are stealing your jobs. The fact of the matter is that finance is still overwhelming white and male and any small change is seen as an attack on white people.


s86ahmed

I thought my comment was perfectly reasonable lol and it was downvoted to hell. It is not racism to hire a qualified non white person over a qualified white person lol or even to prefer them in certain situations. Wall street will even 20-50 years from now be mostly white and mostly male lol. People are acting like they're quant phds and dumber people are getting hired over them when really for most entry level jobs, there are plenty of "qualified" workers and companies choose the right person according to "fit" and other considerations. Where was the moral outrage when you find out that having a "white" name makes it easier to get hired lol. Plenty of companies don't give a shit about diversity anyway and only pretend to on paper. I will say that at least in the more "demanding" parts of finance yes it is tough to hire girls or non asian/indian/white men. There are just fewer of those individuals and so it becomes a slog recruiting them. This is not an issue in e.g. accounting where gender is split equally and plenty of different minorities pursue a career in which it is easier to succeed.


oldmansamuelson

100% agree. Finance has been so white for so long that a touch of color ruins their aesthetic of uniformity.


itsthekumar

They cry about AA but don’t think about the the “invisible” privilege they’ve held for decades.


oldmansamuelson

And still hold for the most part. Most of these anti AA posts are from people who aren't qualified anyways.


Chudovishenomer1

It seems to be widespread now and and it’s very wrong and unsettling and it’s a reverse discrimination. Candidates should be valued based on their merit, not the skin color.


stbv

Yeah. So why sugar coat it? What we’re talking about is racial discrimination aka racism. Not “reverse discrimination.”


Chudovishenomer1

Reverse in this case means that in one point in history one group of people was discriminated against and now it’s flipped. But yeah- I agree, it’s straight racism.


dexter56983

I don't understand why the best person for the job isn't chosen every time. It shouldn't matter what colour, Religion, sexuality etc. It should (and should have) always been like that.


YesIUseJarvan

But it hasn't been hence why this is happening, lol.


WalmartDarthVader

What if you’re 100% latino but white? Will I be considered white and will I be at a disadvantage?


speaker_for_the_dead

Maybe. Most companies dont really make an effort to hire Latinos because they only look to hire the largest minority pools.


agoodusernameno1has

SMA options frequently have diversity quotas to meet the screening tools.


viqing47

A friend of mine works for a PE shop and during a department “roundtable” discussion on MS Teams one of the senior partners told my friends’ manager straight up “you know, i’m looking at your team and i really don’t see a lot of diversity - maybe something to look into”. Every person on my friend’s team is from a different country all over Europe. They just happen to look “white”. Is this really leading to a place where we are hiring people for their ethnic background? It’s such a fucked up trend. Also, I will just leave this here: [1000blackinterns](https://www.10000blackinterns.com)


zlbb

I am shocked some women and minorities are not aware of this. Thought it's well publicized that most/all big companies have pretty ambitious diversity goals for hiring, and more recently for board seats: of course it means that if a company is underperforming on that goal (and most everybody do;) ) they'd need to go out and try to get specifically a minority or a woman. Popular approach I've seen is to hire east asian or indian or eastern european women - there is quite some talent pool there. I'm not sure if by now requirements might've tightened asking more specifically for black/hispanic representation - in my field (quant) that would really be a tough call. Another popular approach, given diversity metrics are often company-wide, is to stuff everything non-essential with diversity hires leaving more flexibility for front office. That is of course under pressure from more granular representation metrics as well as from "pay gap" metrics. The categories most hurt are likely indian and east asian males, as well as poor whites or white immigrants from less developed countries - these generally don't benefit from either hiring practices described above, nor from the kinda human capital investments or connections or other advantages upper class (largely white but not only) folks enjoy. It's hard to avoid this stuff when working for the big companies, though some are more into it than others. Some hedge funds and other smaller and less public entities have more flexibility.


askaflaskattack

This sounds like really weak execution of a DEI strategy or maybe just miscommunication. In my experience (BB bank and PE), there has been a heavy focus on diversity and the requirement was that we must interview X number of qualified women and POC candidates before extending an offer to anyone - not that a woman/POC is required to get the job.


LightOverWater

That's still a weaker form of discrimination. Remember the whole "equal rights and opportunities" thing? In this case, white candidates have less opportunity and POC candidates are given more opportunity. If you have 1,000 candidates and assume 900 are white, 100 are POC, but interviews given out are for 25 white candidates and 25 POC, you have a lot more opportunity as a POC. Statistically speaking, many of the white candidates will be more qualified or higher performing than the POC. This might be known at the interview stage and these white candidates are passed up or this might be discovered later when actually working.


s86ahmed

I mean.... unless that's an example you've seen in real life, I can give anecdotal examples that paint the opposite picture. It presupposes that most of the applications are mostly white people when it could be 60/40, 70/30 etc. and that the interview pool after that would only be half white which once again, possible but also it could be a higher % of white people. I don't deny that some white candidates in certain situations at larger more established companies *do* get passed up but plenty of minorities do as well because the white dude/girl "fits" better on the flip side (they struggle connecting with a still white hiring committee). But by and large being white and male is a massive advantage and a ton of companies quietly promote these dudes regardless of any diversity bs. I can tell you straight up that smaller companies truly don't give a shit and in most roles even at large companies, the white and minority candidate were practically equal with a coin toss and gut feeling deciding who gets hired.


Come-with-us

Companies are seeing value in having people that bring different perspectives, in that way diversity is a good thing. Problem is that some organizations think about it as a quota, which brings other type of problems. I work in a 500 tech company, diversity is being encouraged, but the narrative is: if you are deciding between 2 people that are within the same range of capacity/experience, go for the one that brings more diversity to your current group of people. But if one of them just seems like a better hire, regardless of race or gender, thats the one you should pick. If your team is heavily inclined to lets say white males, HR might ask for written justification, but the manager is not forced, something would need to look wonky to have a negative impact. Hope those other companies get it togheter soon; im mexican and dont see quotas like a good thing, its honestly bad PR for us.


Babyboy1314

MBA answer


will_flyers

I won’t reveal the firm but yes this is true at large banks. I’m screwed by being a white male. My team has only hired non-white candidates for the past couple years.


Kongtai33

And yet theyre still bragging equal opportunity crapp 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️ even when you fill out the application it asks you about race… human race.. 🤪


BlazingNailsMcGee

The amount of whining on this post is sad. How can white guys feel they’re treated unfairly? Because of some anecdotal evidence? Life’s unfair and that applies to everyone. To the white guy that got rejected from one job and the black guy that only got one job offer. Have some perspective and think of the big picture. If what you’re assuming is true then I expect to only see black, women and Hispanic in finance in the next 2 years. Don’t go around labeling women, black men, Hispanics and other minorities etc as incompetent or DEI hires. Being against AA is racist because you’re assuming that minorities are hired solely because of AA and otherwise incompetent or undeserving.


trashgordon2000

This is the current world we live in. I have never been asked to hire or not hire someone due to ethnicity but I've multiple diversity training classes a year that basically tells me to not NOT hire someone based their race. When I first joined this company, it was 100% white men in my group/floor. Now my group has a mix of ethnicities and genders. I hired the first women my team has had in over 10 years which is sad. The only thing that hasn't changed is that they are 100% skilled at what they do.


sir_butterknife_2u

It’s a catch 22 situation /:


LiteralCaveman

Aunt is just below C-suite level in HR at one of the largest IT Services companies in the world. From the C-suite: “don’t you dare bring me a white male” for an interview.


itsthekumar

Nah I don’t believe it because a lot of positions are still held by white people. They’re not going to stop hiring white men lol


TheeGameChanger95

This is pervasive across basically all of finance. It's a shame.


kenlovin

Ummmm all companies in the fortune list. I see the point and I support it but it’s not implemented correctly; quite frankly I don’t know if it can be really.


caramel_bulldog

For my fellow minorities I want y’all to keep one thing in mind when reading something like this or similar stories. People will be more open about their push for diversity but they’ll never be open about denying a candidate because they are a minority. It may seem like we get more preferential treatment but keep in mind theres probably opportunities we didn’t get because we were a minority as well. Nobody is going to admit that so those stories will be less common here. Don’t let anybody try to discredit you based on your skin color.


itsthekumar

As a minority myself I’m both “shocked” and not at the responses on here. I’m pretty sure the recent DEI are very short term and would only change the makeup of a company by like 5-10%. Like companies are not going to bring in teams of Black and brown people in now. They’ll be happy with a few to show “diversity”. A majority of these jobs will still go to white men. I’m surprised that the posters on here are...hurt that minorities are getting jobs based on race, but no one really cares about extending hiring beyond the Ivy League or about legacy admissions etc. I guess it’s easier to punch down than punch up?


speaker_for_the_dead

They wont bring in brown people at all. DEI to a bunch of execs means hiring more black employees and women.


3xDonkeyLeverage

Exactly this, don't let reddit's demographic fool you into thinking otherwise. The whole "hire based off competence" when they finally get a tiny taste of what's been happening to minorities for centuries on a systematic scale in America is complete bullshit. Guess what, if you were to truly hire based off ability, all these jobs would go to Asians, who aggregately have to score notches higher on standardized testing to get admitted to the same opportunities. The truth is "competence" is extremely subjective and fit is most-deciding factor in non-tech job interviews. If you have an industry predominately white and male, they are naturally predisposed to hiring people like themselves, even if they are generally unbiased. It's unfortunate that some deserving people will be victim to these policies but it is a step in the right direction. Dont blame minorities, blame the assholes that started the problem to begin with.


YesIUseJarvan

> "hire based off competence" I find this hilarious when they try and hide behind this and the "best candidate for the job" argument when that hasn't been happening since... ever.


YesIUseJarvan

100% and the fact that you're downvoted is very telling of how this subreddit thinks overall. Every week there's another post about diversity initiatives when the real enemy to the average white male on Reddit is the more connected white male or even the white woman. We don't even get in some of these rooms because of our skin color.


Notathrowaway4853

Yup. Happens all the time. I do a lot of recruiting for my company. If you’re a woman or black it doesn’t matter if you can barely fog a mirror, you’re getting an interview. Mildly competent? Job offer. Asians, Indians, and white men need not apply. I’ve seen plenty of better candidates in every form get overlooked in the name of DEI. Don’t worry, there’s plenty of conversations around that persons work ethic/quality when it starts to show they don’t have it all together. I’m in engineering. It’s easy to spot who knows their shit versus who was born the right color and sex and coasted through school.


Moneyspeaks7

Lol that’s ridiculous. That’s your companies fault for hiring incompetent people regardless of physical attributes. There are plenty of competent black and women engineers.


Remedy9898

This has been happening for a while but its gotten a lot more blatant in the last year. What can you do 🤷‍♂️ meritocracy was always fake anyways.


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BossOfGuns

Nothing. but if your name was Singh Kumar, it's hard to tell them you are latino. Not to mention that no one that truly thinks they are qualified would stoop to that level to get a job. I used to proudly put Asian/Straight in my apps, now I just put double undisclosed (even though my name is super asian)


MarioKartWiiGoat

It’s is the same case with Latinos? Anyone knows :/?


BossOfGuns

Depends. JPM diversity programs still offers it to blacks and latinos (latinx as they call it), as well as LGBTQ individuals, but I've observed many programs who offers it to exclusively BIPOC.


Iam-KD

Man at this rate, I might just identify myself as one of the letters in lgbtq to get hired after graduation lol


notBurqu

It’s likely that much of this backwards thinking from senior leaders in finance will (hopefully) die with their generation. It’s tough.


Moneyspeaks7

It won’t die lol, you think those senior bankers who were at their firms when they were all white men give a fuck? Nah, it’s all optics and younger people that are aware of the climate instituting these programs. It’s not going anywhere.


cheetoduster

You really shouldn’t be shocked by this. This has been a pressure on hiring managers for a while now, and while I am sure either you or the MD was paraphrasing when you say he “wasn’t allowed” to hire white or Indian candidates, senior managers don’t want to get painted into a corner where their teams are all white men. It is not a good look. That being said, the best candidates at senior roles still get hired regardless of race or sex, but the diversity pressure is really being felt at entry or junior roles, where there is more substitute between candidates.


camyface

This brings out the argument: Is it more racist to give minorities and other disadvantaged groups a more advantageous position in the hiring process? Or is it more racist to continue to support a system that innately disregards the advantages and disadvantages of certain backgrounds which only ends up propagating systematic racism? If it’s not clear, I think the first option gets us closer to an “end of racism.” That, along with the fact that interracial couples are becoming more common and, eventually, America will become so mixed that it would be difficult to be racist unless you’re just really stupid. A lot of people (mostly white) preach equality as a process when it’s really the end goal. Equal treatment now just means that minorities will be in a relatively similar position 10 or 20 years in the future. They don’t truly understand that racism goes far beyond the slurs and stereotypes. Racism is in our legal system, our financial systems, our infrastructure, education, etc. How can you ask for a merit based process when your “merit” is an indirect result of racism? I’m not blaming any white people who were also born into this system because it’s not their fault that the system was created this way. But they do have some fault when they choose to ignore why they are in the position they are to afford private schools, tutors, etc. I also don’t think any minority should ever feel inferior for their ethnicity being considered in the hiring process. It’s basically a rebate on the additional stress and disadvantages you might have faced growing up.


eternalmortal

The only problem with this argument is where does it end? Is there a percentage of upper positions that have to be filled by people with certain backgrounds for you to believe that equality as a goal has been reached? Or are we just headed for racial quotas that must be maintained in line with population percentages in perpetuity? And this is assuming that all races are a monolith in terms of background, wealth, education, and ability. I disagree with your premise that racism is prevalent in our legal/financial/infrastructure/education systems, but if concrete examples of codified racism can be provided I want to be the first person to fight to change them with you.


itsthekumar

You don’t think racism is prevalent in American institutions? What??


TMCforever

How many diversity hires will climb the ranks though? I can’t speak about other firms, but at mine there is not one black manager in the front office. Only analysts and even then, very few. Every other race is represented in management. Maybe there are some diversity candidates who don’t deserve it, but there are plenty more that do. It’s not like this shit is rocket science, especially in low and barely quantitative positions. Anyway, diversity hires are not your worry it is legacy kids. Everyone wants to point fingers at the diversity initiatives while glossing over the fact that most of these positions are filled through connections. It’s not a meritocratic industry and it never was.


itsthekumar

I’m pissed no one is talking about legacies and kids with connections. Like what?


INCEL_ANDY

We live in a world where the conditions of your parents determine a great deal of the opportunities and success you’ll experience. Sure hiring on merit is a cool idea, but it will just reinforce existing racial advantages that exist, especially in high finance. That being said, if we agree it’s more difficult for a black guy to advance in society as much as a white guy and they are both applying for a job where the white candidate has slightly more “merit”, then hiring solely based on merit would be a foolish thing to do strategically. It is like declaring the winner of a race a guy who started 15 meters ahead. Who’s to say the minority with less current merit isn’t better at accumulating merit and would surpass the white candidate given time or an equal starting line? Even then let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that the jobs in high finance are especially difficult, if anything it’s the exact opposite. That is why we work so many hours at junior levels, to justify our salary for the relatively simple work we do. The banks aren’t going to hire complete monkeys.


Chudovishenomer1

So let me get this straight. If I invest in my son’s education ( he is white) , spend a lot of time/ money for his tutors, extra curriculum classes, homeworks etc, he should not be hired based on that ( time and effort he spent) when he grows up because other parents did not do it?


DiscountedValue

I’ve started to say I’m Latino on my applications because of this, but I’m 100% white. It’s very frustrating and I wonder if I’ve been turned down from jobs I would be a great fit for because I put down that I am white 🤣


Motorized23

This has been happening for some time when it comes to males and females. Got passed over a promotion to allow a female to take the role since they needed more females in the managerial role. Nevermind my better credentials, experience and network.


BlazingNailsMcGee

This seems like an ignorant and anecdotal view on this subject.


kafkaesqe

But why Indian in particular? It’s not like that’s a box on a job application.


itsthekumar

Definitely a part of the whole “keep things white” but have a few smart Asians/Indians for show.


funfact2324

This is due to diversion inclusion, most companies are trying to bring the number of black/ African American number up because the disparity is high , therefore companies Acesss number of candidates in the company and decide how many more blacks are needed that’s all.